i do admire your nerve to jump in with the intro you did post ..in a pakistani community where i am sure ..anyone like u who is an athiest and an israeli, a zionist basically... would probably have not been welcomed for obvious reasons
but ..like i said ..we donot judge people on the general impression they have ..but i am sure a lot of pakistanis have been subject to such racial and religious prejudice in the west at times ..where if you just mention you are from pakistan ..and the next person makes this awful face and says ' hey beware of this guy/girl...they might have a bomb up their sleeve' or 'oh the terrorists !'.. or even replies like 'go back and f**k your own country'
so what do you have to say on that and muslims in general..do you think the tag of TERRORIST is fairly given and all the propoganda is justified.. ?
n yea by now u wud have guessed u r welcomed here at GS.. we respect everyone's right of the way they choose to lead their lives. not judging them from their location, creed religion or ethnicity .
but healthy conversations about social immorals, political situations and comparitive study on religions could always help us see both sides of the picture
Not for me to judge but you can't be Jewish and Athiest at the same time, Hebrew is an ethnicity/language so you can be a Hebrew Athiest or Hebrew Muslim but not a Jewish Athiest. Judaism is a religion and either you believe in it or you don't.
If you don't believe in God and Torah, seems a bit baseless believing that Judaism is hereditory.
And HaShem/Elohim/Jehovah/Allaah is not merely a tribal God of the Bani-Israel/Hebrews but rather the one true Diety of the whole universe/creation who sent many scriptures and prophets to many nations, not just the Hebrews or their Arab cousins.
You can call me a Hebrew if you want, but Jews and Hebrews are synonyms for us the Jews... or the Hebrews... or the sons of Israel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosherwan
I've got nothing against Judaism/Jews. I'm fascinated by the Jewish religion, it's a shame we can't get on with each other. I think we have a lot more in common than we don't, we both have big noses for one. If it hadn't been for the Jews we'd probably not be allowed to perform circumcisions or ritually slaughter our animals under draining the blood...
....But I don't agree with the aparthied state of Israel and the oppression of the Palestinian people, I'm against Zionism but not Judaism or Jews.
The holocaust was awful and no people deserve that and I hate it when Muslim leaders deny it but why did Palestinians have to pay the price? If the West felt so bad about the crimes their people committed against the Jewish people they should have carved a Jewish country out of Germany or something to atone for their sins, why did they have to snatch the land of Palestinians and give it to the Ashkeneazi?
I think the Mizrahi Jews of Palestine have a right to Palestine as do Palestinian Muslims and Christians but not the Ashekenazi, the Ashekenazi are European/German not Middle Eastern.
The Palestinians do not pay the price of the Holocaust. It is a misconception promoted by some (I suspect knowingly).
Regarding the Ashkenazi, well, The Jews were dispersed and settled in different places. Some settled in the Northen Africa, some in Asia, some in Europe. I don't think that settling in Europe makes you less Jewish in some way. I'm an Ashkenazi, and my ancestors lived for many generations in Europe. But if I ever decided to pass myself as a person of European decent, my Semitic nose would betray me every time. It is like the black Americans, who lived for many generations in the US. They could never pass as Anglo-Saxons and they did not become less black because of many generations living in North America.
How do you see the killing session going on in Palestine in the name of Zionism?
I addressed the issue of killing before.
Yet, how do you see the killing in the name of Islam, freedom, defending your country, defending your family... (put in a noble cause of your choice)?
You can call me a Hebrew if you want, but Jews and Hebrews are synonyms for us the Jews... or the Hebrews... or the sons of Israel.
The reason I said Jewish and Hebrew are seperate things is because Samaritans are not considered Jewish are they but they're Hebrew, similarly some Hebrews converted to Islam but they'd still be Hebrew, just like Greeks were still Greek even after accepting Christianity.
Quote:
Regarding the Ashkenazi, well, The Jews were dispersed and settled in different places. Some settled in the Northen Africa, some in Asia, some in Europe. I don't think that settling in Europe makes you less Jewish in some way. I'm an Ashkenazi, and my ancestors lived for many generations in Europe. But if I ever decided to pass myself as a person of European decent, my Semitic nose would betray me every time. It is like the black Americans, who lived for many generations in the US. They could never pass as Anglo-Saxons and they did not become less black because of many generations living in North America.
Why does it matter where our ancestors came from?
Far back enough we all probably originated in Africa, so what do we do move back to Africa?
By your logic most white people from USA, Austrailia, New Zealand should move back to Britain.
American or European Jews are not Middle Eastern, they are American and European, that's their home and that's what they should be loyal to. The Ashekenazi look white, other than their noses but nothing wrong with big noses they add charecter to your face.
It doesn't matter what our ancestors were because we're all racial hybrids anyway, including Jews that's why European Jews look Caucasian whilst Mizrahi Jews look brown like us.
I'm Muslim, of Pakistani descent but it is said that the Pashtun and Kashmiri people of Pakistan/Afghanistan are atleast partially descended from the Lost Tribes of the Israel. What do I do move back to Israel? We've also have Greek, Dravidian, Ind-Aryan etc. as part of our racial makeup so how lost and confused would we be if we decided to move back to where our ancestors came from!!
I'm brown, my parents came from Pakistan but I'd probably solely identify as British because this is where I'm born and all my family that I care about is British, I still have a connection with Pakistan but my children and grandchildren wont.
In my opnion The Holy Land belongs to local Mizrahi Jews, Palestinian Christians and Palestinian Muslims. Europeanised Jews belong in Europe.... Well I hope there is a peaceful soloution soon, whatever it is.
Anyways dude welcome aboard, enjoy your stay here, we can have different political/religious views but that shouldn't stop us being cordial and friendly towards each other, at the end of the day we're all human and need love...
We might not agree with your political views mate but know that we have nothing against Judaism, Jews, Bani-Israel or Hebrews. I'd probably have been a Jew had I not heard of Islam.
"Allah will not forgive any the association of anything with Him; but He will forgive any lesser offense to whomsoever He chooses" [Intrepretation of the meaning of the Noble Quran 4:47, 115].
Last edited by Nosherwan; Oct 31st, 2009 at 04:30 PM..
it is always nice to interact with people that you hear so much about... those of us who have moved to the west have probably interacted with jews at some point or another but a majority of the muslims in majority muslim countries have never seen a jew. Even those of us who live in the west don't know much about the street level views of israelis. So i hope you'll stick around.
One thing you mentioned a couple of times in this thread was that our idea of zionism was quite different from what it actually is. Can you explain what zionism means to you?
yaaN kay sapaid-o-seh maiN hum ko, dakhal jo hai so itna hai
raat ko ro ro subhu kiya, ya din ko jooN tooN shaam kiya
Well, in my eyes, Zionism is a very righteous cause. In fact, I believe that any decent person should be a Zionist sympathizer.
Then again, from my experience "Zionism" is frequently used as a curse word to describe all kind of crazy things that have nothing to do with Zionism in reality.
I guess you and me have a very different idea about what Zionism is.
Having or giving the Jews a homeland is a rigtheous cause. But that concpet of Zionism died when Israel was created. Pretty words mean very little when they aren't backed up by concrete actions. There is a huge discrepency in what Zionists say and their actions.
For one the concept of Greater Israel. Second the settlements. The third take the homes of existing Palestinians and converting them to Israeli settlements. These are all proponents of the modern Zionist idealogy. One that is supported by AIPAC, BB and the Israeli government.
Hardly righteous endeavours.
“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”
This is ONE person of a huuuuuuuuge group of DIVERSE people. Most of whom, actually don't hate YOU, or YOU, or YOU.
So, cut the guy some slack. Don't crucify him. He doesn't live in Israel, and probably doesn't have anything to do with military decisions in the middle east.
I did not say I was "believing in nothing". I simply don't believe in things I have no good reason no believe in. And speaking of the so called "revealed religions", like Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Bahai, and so on, the whole concept does not make much sense to me at all. I mean the "creator of the Universe" could find a better way to convey his message to humanity other than revealing it in a mysterious ways to a single person in a desert. Come on, I could do better than that, and I'm not claiming to be an omnipotent creator of everything.
A messenger (according to you a person in desert) is a leader chosen by God, you do follow a leader in a form of your boss or ruler of your country, right? Why so? Why do you follow a single person in suit? Why can't every single person be a leader when majority is as sane and educated as the single leader is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexB
Thank you for hating me "in general" without even knowing me. (Yes, I'm being sarcastic).
Yet, I bet your concept of "Zionists" is very different from what Zionists are really about.
So what Zionists are really about? For me Zionists are a different form of tahrik e Taliban and BNP.
"In the fight against the Monoculture, the main sign is the hijab, and the main act is the Prayer". T.J Winter
The way you guys are treating him is exactly how Muslims fear being treated when living abroad.
You're all so embarrassing. Be nice to him. He is being fairly civil. So cut it with the accusatory statements. Just like you should not be held responsible for terrorists, he isn't responsible for Palestinian deaths. He is human just like us. Try to understand these people and they will stop hurting you.
I believe in dragons, good men, and other fantasy creatures.
I don't think anybody is being rude or hateful towards AlexB particularly, but anyone claiming to be a representative of BNP, KKK or Taliban or Zionists would get the same responses.
Last edited by hareem01; Nov 1st, 2009 at 02:20 PM..
Yeh banda ghalat hoga, lekin aap to Musalman ho, tareeke se issey samjhao, diplomacy aur piyar ke saath.
Badtameezi, badkalaami aur bayrukhi hum Musalmano ke zeb nahi deti.
Woh yahaan pe mehman hai, aur mehman-nawazi hamarey mazhab ka ek hissa hai.
Hamaarey Aaqa sab ke saath intehai narm mizaji ke saath pesh aaya kartey they, apne dushmano ke saath bhi aur hamen bhi unn ki Sunnat-e-Aqdas pe amal karna chahiyey.
Yeh kaafir hotey huwey bhi kitne achey akhlaq ke saath pesh aa raha hai, agar yeh ghalat bhi hai to tab bhi kese apni baat meethey andaaz mein aur intehai aajizi ke saath kar raha hai, inn logon se kuch SEEKHO Musalmano.
Hum Musalmano ka yeh masla hai ke hum jazbaati ho jaatey hain aur aqal se kaam nahi letey. Jo baat aap ghussey se kartey ho wohi baat narm-mizaaji se bhi kahi ja sakti hai, kisi bachey ko agar mein "beta" keh kar bulata houn to woh khush ho jaey ga lekin agar mein ussey "meri jorru ke bachey" keh kar bulaata houn to woh ghussa ho jaey ga ke mene ussey gaali di hai, halaanke baat to ek hi huwi...
Allah Ta'aala farmaatey hain (intrepretation of the meaning)...
AAP APNE RABB KE RAASTE KI TARAF BULAIYYE, HIKMAT AUR ACHCHI NASEEHAT KARKE, AUR UNKE SAATH ACHCHE TAREEQEY SE BAHASS KIJIYE...
Isse shakhs ko apne achey akhlaq se mutasir karo, iss ka dil-o-dimaagh Islam ke liyey jeet lo!!
Agar koi shakhs aap se badtameezi karey ga aur zabardasti apni baat aap ko samjhaane ki koshish karey ga to yaqeenan aap ghussa hongey aur uss ki baat nahi sunnen ge chaahey woh sahi hi kiyun na ho ho lekin wohi baat agar woh aajizi ke saath kahey ga to aap uss ki baat pe ghaur karo ge.
Zionist dehshat gard hain, iss mein koi shaq naheen, lekin badtmeezi karne se Falasteeniyo ke liyey haalaat aur bigrren ge, agar inn logon ne Falstinyon pe zulm karna hai to woh to yeh karen ge, chaahey hum computer pe bethey issey kitna hi kiyun na daant len, hamaarey ghussey se yeh baaz thorri na aa jaey ga, haan lekin agar hum issey piyar se samjhaen to shed iss ki soch badal jaey, shed yeh Islam qubool kar le.
Koi bhi baat karne se pehle ya koi bhi kaam karne se pehle yeh soch lo, ke bhai jazbaat mein aa kar yeh mein kar to raha houn lekin kya iss se Islam aur Muslim Ummah ko faaedah pohnchey ga ya nuqsaan?
Hur cheez ki apni jageh hoti hai, yeh bulletin board hai, yahaan badtameezi, ghussey ya akarr dikhaaney se Musalmano ya Islam ko kuch faaeda nahi honey waala.
Hum Musalman ka masla yeh hai ke hum bherriye ki khaal mein bheyrr hain.
^right. Talking from Islamic point of view you should've just sent me a personal message to point out where exactly did I go wrong instead of giving me a huge lecture in front of everyone.
Last edited by hareem01; Nov 1st, 2009 at 08:21 PM..
^nosherwan bhai.. bilkul theek bat ki ap ne
thts exactly what i want to do ..takay ye bhag na jaye ..bohat kum aisa chance milta hai k hmara barahirast rabta hua ho kisi aise fard se ... positive istimaal kerna chaye is ka
^right. Talking from Islamic point of view you should've just sent me a personal message to point out where exactly did I go wrong instead of giving me a huge lecture in front of everyone.
Okay Mr AlexB!
I never meant to be rude to you but if you think that I was being harsh and stuff then I apologize, hope you'll forgive me.
Awww, I'm sorry baaji if your felt I'm giving you a lecture.
Aap bhi apni jageh sahi ho, aap ne koi ghalat baat nahi ki, bas baat karney ka andaaz thorra karrwa tha.
I'm not being holier than thou, I loose my temper aswell sometimes, and although i mentioned u and shard manny bhai by name, I meant the post as a Naseehat for all my fellow Muslims/Pakistanis to practice not just on here but in real life too because sab ki nazren hum Musalmano pe hain, we're Islam's ambassadors, that's why I didn't pm u becoz I wanted to remind all fellow Momins.
Sorry if u felt I was giving u a lecture, I find ur posts very meaningful and informative, mein kaun hota houn aap ko lecture dene wala, ur a lot better than me.
If it hadn't been for the Jews we'd probably not be allowed to perform circumcisions or ritually slaughter our animals under draining the blood...
sab ke saath intehai narm mizaji ke saath pesh aaya kartey they, apne dushmano ke saath bhi aur hamen bhi unn ki Sunnat-e-Aqdas pe amal karna chahiyey.
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