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ahahhahahaha, its interesting to read about people debating such stupid things like who has "dark" and "light" genes Today in Toronto you are all terrorist towelheads and no one cares what your genes (or jeans) are Dark, Light, Diesel or D&G ITs all the same losers, get over it
Isn't it a subtle appeal to "MUSLIM UMMAH" sentiments? It is ironical that on the one hand, you decline joining a Muslim country or to be assimilated into a community of Muslim Ummah because it is poor and a mess, but on the other you are trying to invoke sentiments of Muslim solidarity to face the reaction/hostility from Westerners?
Is not this inconsistent?
Why shouldn't only those Muslim ethnicities/communities be targeted/labeled to which majority of terrorists belong. Arabs and some Muslim communities in South Asia top the list. It would be interesting to compile a list of terrorists based on ethnic affiliation rather than country or religious affiliation.
Sorry for being off the topic!
Last edited by LastOfTheDinosaurs; Jun 6th, 2006 at 07:21 AM..
Bro that's your wishful thinking, 90% of Punjabis and 90% of Pashtuns don't look alike. Punjabi, Sindhi and Karachi Urdus are darker skinned than Pashtuns and that's not because of "environmental exposure" but because of genetics, Pashtuns and Desis (Punjabi, Sindhi, Urdu) living in the same environment whether that be in the UK or Karachi will still look different, just look at a Pashtun rag picker child and then a Urdu/Punjabi businesswoman when the latter forgets to use their "fair & lovely crème" in Karachi/Lahore and compare their skin tones, don't worry there's nothing wrong with being dark skinned.
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woahhh since when Punjabis become darker?? SO much for your stupid ignorance. Yes Karachites are little darker becuz most of them hail from North Indian, but there is no way punjabis are dark Have you ever lived in Pakistan among PAKISTANIS???? Phuleasee keep your philosophy to yourself if you have never lived or friended with punjabis You also need lot of growing up to do like Anil.. What the heck is up with you guys(pathan ) obsessing to show off that Pathans are lighter in color?? does that make you smarter??hell NO.
Last edited by Jal_Pari; Jun 6th, 2006 at 07:23 AM..
In our areas, there are two types of Gujars; one Ajar who have large herds of goats and sheeps and live a migratory life in mountains and the other Gajar, who live sedentory life in the plains and keep kattles like Buffalos and cows and sell milk and other diary products...
Fanous Gujjar is a famous gujar in Swat. Now a days they have become politically influential in Swat with naib nazim of Swat being a gujar as my relatives tell me. They mostly speak Pashto.
There are plenty of Hindu and some Sikh Gujjars in India. Most of them are milkmen or cattle/sheep herders. Some are politicians and many are criminals.
woahhh since when Punjabis become darker?? SO much for your stupid ignorance. Yes Karachites are little darker becuz most of them hail from North Indian, but there is no way punjabis are dark Have you ever lived in Pakistan among PAKISTANIS???? Phuleasee keep your philosophy to yourself if you have never lived or friended with punjabis You also need lot of growing up to do like Anil.. What the heck is up with you guys(pathan ) obsessing to show off that Pathans are lighter in color?? does that make you smarter??hell NO.
Chill out, I didn’t say being dark was a bad thing, in fact I find it quite sexy, and care to tell me where I said lighter skinned people are smarter?
Please stop kidding yourself, you can fool yourself but you can’t fool other people and expect them to be pretend pretend.
I have been to Pakistani Punjab (Lahore, Sialkot, Jhang) and I have Punjabi friends over here in England who are mostly from Jhelum and I see the Bhangra singers, they are all quite dark compared to us Pashtuns and Kashmiris (proper Dardic Kashmiris not the Punjabi Mirpuri ones), some are quite light skinned and can pass for Centyral Asian like us but they are a minority, 20% at most. I agree Punjabi people are slightly less darker than Urdu and other Indic people.
I’m not being racist, I think Punjabi people are WELLLL FIT, even the Mirpuris with their noses are fit, I don't know why you wanna be white, brown skin is so sexy as long as it’s clean ( not thidi ), glowing, flowless and not hairy.
Chill out, I didn’t say being dark was a bad thing, in fact I find it quite sexy, and care to tell me where I said lighter skinned people are smarter?
Please stop kidding yourself, you can fool yourself but you can’t fool other people and expect them to be pretend pretend.
I have been to Pakistani Punjab (Lahore, Sialkot, Jhang) and I have Punjabi friends over here in England who are mostly from Jhelum and I see the Bhangra singers, they are all quite dark compared to us Pashtuns and Kashmiris (proper Dardic Kashmiris not the Punjabi Mirpuri ones), some are quite light skinned and can pass for Centyral Asian like us but they are a minority, 20% at most. I agree Punjabi people are slightly less darker than Urdu and other Indic people.
I’m not being racist, I think Punjabi people are WELLLL FIT, even the Mirpuris with their noses are fit, I don't know why you wanna be white, brown skin is so sexy as long as it’s clean ( not thidi ), glowing, flowless and not hairy.
Jal Pari jee wants to become white so that she can avoid desis like that cuz we will think Jal Pari is actually an american gori, Jenny Perry and we will be afraid to go near her.
Isn't it a subtle appeal to "MUSLIM UMMAH" sentiments? It is ironical that on the one hand, you decline joining a Muslim country or to be assimilated into a community of Muslim Ummah because it is poor and a mess, but on the other you are trying to invoke sentiments of Muslim solidarity to face the reaction/hostility from Westerners?
Is not this inconsistent?
Why shouldn't only those Muslim ethnicities/communities be targeted/labeled to which majority of terrorists belong. Arabs and some Muslim communities in South Asia top the list. It would be interesting to compile a list of terrorists based on ethnic affiliation rather than country or religious affiliation.
Sorry for being off the topic!
Sorry if I threw you off topic, but I dont at all intend to invoke the "muslim ummah" (if such a thing even exists) with these comments.
A Greek buddy I work with was called a terrorist on Monday , what I mean is that physical appearence especially something as trivial as - Are your genes off-white or brown - is an incredibly stupid thing to debate. The political climate of these times makes it even more trivial.
Isn't it a subtle appeal to "MUSLIM UMMAH" sentiments? It is ironical that on the one hand, you decline joining a Muslim country or to be assimilated into a community of Muslim Ummah because it is poor and a mess, but on the other you are trying to invoke sentiments of Muslim solidarity to face the reaction/hostility from Westerners?
Is not this inconsistent?
Why shouldn't only those Muslim ethnicities/communities be targeted/labeled to which majority of terrorists belong. Arabs and some Muslim communities in South Asia top the list. It would be interesting to compile a list of terrorists based on ethnic affiliation rather than country or religious affiliation.
Sorry for being off the topic!
Yes some muslim communities in South Asia definitly top the fundamentalist list. hmm... who were those freindly group of moderate, westernized tribesmen who were ruling Afghanistan and are fighting to take it over again??
I'm sure you have will a few thousand excuses. But all stereotypes are based in a grain of reality and the reality is that Pashtuns are deeply religous people woh are often involved in militant violence no matter how much the >1% of secular pashtuns like yourself try denying it.
That said I dont necessarily codemn them for this. People are a product of their environment. But reality is reality.
Yes some muslim communities in South Asia definitly top the fundamentalist list. hmm... who were those freindly group of moderate, westernized tribesmen who were ruling Afghanistan and are fighting to take it over again??
I'm sure you have will a few thousand excuses. But all stereotypes are based in a grain of reality and the reality is that Pashtuns are deeply religous people woh are often involved in militant violence no matter how much the >1% of secular pashtuns like yourself try denying it.
That said I dont necessarily codemn them for this. People are a product of their environment. But reality is reality.
The grain of reality you are talking about is "your grain of reality" not in accordance with historical facts. True, they have been involved in military stuggle but for their own liberty and whenever their land has been attacked. As they fought against British and Russians, so did they fight against Mughals, Iranis, and others.
Pashtuns have established many kingdoms, states, and empires but none was theocray. Until the emergence of MMA, thanks the mechanation of Pakistani establishment, (MMA=Mullah Military Alliance), secular parties held sway, not to forget the non-communal and secular Khudai Khidmatgars who won elections in Pashtun areas in 1937 and 1946.
Pashtuns don't need Islam to redine and distinguish themselves from others.
Pan-Islam and Political Islam have sprung from identity crisis in Hindustani Muslims. In quest for a new identity different from non-Muslim inhabitants of Hindustan, they have sought links with other Muslim communities based on Pan-Islamic sentiments. In fact, in todays world, Hindustani and Arab Muslims are the two communities that are basions of Ideological and militant Islam (One needs it to liberate Palestine and expand Arab political and cultural influence and the other to find an identity for themselves, to legitmate the concept of nationhood based on religion, and to liberate Kashmir). Pakistan Ideology is another expression of theocratic Idealism to justify nationhood.
Islamabad means "abode of Islam" and Pakistan means "Land of the Pure" (as if those residing outside the bounds of Pakistan were not impure), again theocratic symbolism.
When Kamal Ataturk decided to dessolve Islamic Khalafat, these Hindustani Muslims appealed to him not to do that. Tehrik-i-Khalaft, the movement for restoration of Khalafat, had been waged by Hindustani Muslims with leaders from Hindustan.
Of the 17 terrorists arrested in Torronto, 12 are Pakistani and I bet none is Pashtun.
The grain of reality you are talking about is "your grain of reality" not in accordance with historical facts. True, they have been involved in military stuggle but for their own liberty and whenever their land has been attacked. As they fought against British and Russians, so did they fight against Mughals, Iranis, and others.
Pashtuns have established many kingdoms, states, and empires but none was theocray. Until the emergence of MMA, thanks the mechanation of Pakistani establishment, (MMA=Mullah Military Alliance), secular parties held sway, not to forget the non-communal and secular Khudai Khidmatgars who won elections in Pashtun areas in 1937 and 1946.
Pashtuns don't need Islam to redine and distinguish themselves from others.
Pan-Islam and Political Islam have sprung from identity crisis in Hindustani Muslims. In quest for a new identity different from non-Muslim inhabitants of Hindustan, they have sought links with other Muslim communities based on Pan-Islamic sentiments. In fact, in todays world, Hindustani and Arab Muslims are the two communities that are basions of Ideological and militant Islam (One needs it to liberate Palestine and expand Arab political and cultural influence and the other to find an identity for themselves, to legitmate the concept of nationhood based on religion, and to liberate Kashmir). Pakistan Ideology is another expression of theocratic Idealism to justify nationhood.
Islamabad means "abode of Islam" and Pakistan means "Land of the Pure" (as if those residing outside the bounds of Pakistan were not impure), again theocratic symbolism.
When Kamal Ataturk decided to dessolve Islamic Khalafat, these Hindustani Muslims appealed to him not to do that. Tehrik-i-Khalaft, the movement for restoration of Khalafat, had been waged by Hindustani Muslims with leaders from Hindustan.
Of the 17 terrorists arrested in Torronto, 12 are Pakistani and I bet none is Pashtun.
12 were Pakistani?
Thats the first time I've ever heard such a fact. My understanding was the majority of suspects were Somalian, Bangladeshi, Egyptian and West Indian. BTW - keep in mind these men are not convicted of anything and calling them terrorists is stupidity.
Anyhow, regardless if they were or were not Pakistani, most would not be Pashtun. Why? Because there probably are'nt more than 17 Pashtuns in all of Toronto
You'll find loads of "pathans", but very frew Pashtuns.
Whatever the case either Islam, or Pashtun culture (Taliban, obsession with covering women, all those beards, hezbi islami in AFG etc,etc). Something fuels the perception of Pashtuns being conservative muslims, or are you going to insist that no such perception exists and I am dreaming?
We can agree to disagree but I suspect statistics would prove me right that secular minded Pashtuns such as yourself are a tiny minority.
Pashtuns are an orthodox muslim group, but to say extremist through most of their time is an exxageration. The thing is whether pashtuns want to admit it or not (or non-pashtuns) there has to be a degree of secularism among us. There has been and is currently so, sine we adhere to pakhtunwali. A good portion of it is not in islam, in fact most of it has been influenced by zoroastrianism, and what not. Although its unfair to say we are liberal (whihc we arent), but most of this islamist ideas came on after the soviet-afghan war.
[SIZE=2]pasa nagyaleya! nun dilbar o janana ogatah
num da Pukhtan waghatah namos da Afghan waghtah-
tol jahan hairan krah akhpal zan pa tamasha
ay da Ahmad zuweya o bacheya da Shairshah!
Please don't make a fool of yourself. You earlier said that many Punjabis and Pathans look similar. That's the most stupid thing to say. No need to look at genetic studies. If you have EVER been to Pakistan then just look around you.
You should not make others waste their time on your Utopias.
- Beta, what is "south asian" racial element?
- I asked you about Punjabis not included in that racial map, you did not comment.
- Parsis may have married some Sindhis and Gujratis after living here for many years, but mostly they did not marry outside their community, and that is why they should be more closer genetically to Persians than any other nationality.
You have just proven your ignorance on racial/genetic studies!
In the genetic studies, "South Asian" is used as a term representing distinct genetic traits/markers specifically dominant in the South Asian region. But like I said before no race is pure ! These South Asian genes are found all over the Middle East and Central Asia as a small minority. And obviously they dominate in India as the overwhelming majority (80-100%) except for parts of northwest India (E. Punjab, Gujarat, etc) where its more like around 60-70%. On the other hand in Pakistan, these genes only represent less than 50% of Pakistanis. The complete study can be found at: http://www.oxfordancestors.com/paper...ALandscape.pdf
You are in denial of the fact that many Punjabis and Pashtuns look alike. In the above genetic studies itself, the genetic makeup for both ethnic groups is very similar. Skin color is irrelevant in racial/genetic studies which is more dependent on natural environment/climate and its long-term exposure.
In a 2004 Stanford study conducted with a wide sampling from India, including 112 Punjabis, and selected other countries, displayed the following: Broadly, the average proportion of mtDNAs from West Eurasia among Indian caste populations is 17%. In the western States of India and in Pakistan their share is greater, reaching over 30% in Kashmir and Gujarat, nearly 40% in Indian Punjab, and peaking, expectedly, at approximately 50% in Pakistan. It just proves that Pakistanis (including Punjabis) are by large racially/genetically distinct from Indians!
Last edited by Pakistan4ever; Jun 15th, 2006 at 07:59 AM..
I was busy out-of-town and unable to respond to your arguments in the "Pakistani Identity" thread which has now been closed. Once I get more time, I will open up another thread with a similar title so that we can continue with our debate.
You are in denial of the fact that many Punjabis and Pashtuns look alike.
Your stupidity knows no bounds, dear P4ever idiot.
Anyone claiming Punjabis to be similar to Pashtuns has either not seen Punjabis or not seen Pashtuns.
You commented on "South Asian racial element", but you still did not respond to my two other points:
- Why are Punjabis not included in your map?
- Why are Parsis made closer to the so-called "South-Asian" gene if they have maintained their separate identity as original Persian community?
Regarding "South Asian racial element". You seem to be using it to mean "Dravidian racial element". Of course, as we move closer to the original region of Dravidians in Southern India, we will find Dravidian genes more and more. North Indians have less number of such genes, because they are the mix of Dravidians and Aryans. Similarly, as we move west, we will seen Dravidian genes being even less dominant, and it is only natural.
This decrease in Dravidian genes is not sudden, rather it follows a gradual pattern. It's like, say, Hyderabad Deccan 50% Drav. genes, Bombay 40% Drav. genes, Delhi 35%, Punjab 30%, Pashtuns, 20% ... etc. (Yes, these percentages are my own making. It depends on historical population movement. The point is to show the gradual lessening of Drav. genes).
Now where is the boundary line? How can you say that what makes Pakistan different from "Indians" (a misnomer itself) is the smaller percentage of Dravidian genes? Bharatis themselves have this gradual decrease in Dravidian genes in their own population and yet they still call ALL of themselves as Bharatis. How come 35% Drav. genes in Delhi-wallahs keep them Bharatis and a little less, say, 30% genes in Punjabis make them Pakistanis?
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The fact is that Pakistan was NOT created on the base of race or nationality. It was created on the basis of religion ALONE.
No matter how hard you try to play race-card, but race is not what defines Pakistan, it is ISLAM.
I have recently registered with this interesting forum and I would like to share my humble views with you guys.
It is regarding Gujars. By the way, I am not a Gujar, but do have a lot of respect for them. Unlike the immense, unfathomable and often varied information and knowledge available on the net, mine is just quite bookish and limited. Still I would like to add something. As far as the Gujars are concerned, they were actually central asian in origin. They were called, Gujaras and/or Gurjaras. The Khazars, Kajars or Qajars were actually Persians and not central asians, although both are Cauacassian. The word Khazar is probably a later version, and appeared quite lately in Persia under the Arab influence. The word Khazar is a variation of the word Khizar in Arabic which means Green. The same word has been reserved for Hazrat Khizar, who according to certain muslim scholars and sufis, guide the lost and distracted in sea, rivers and lakes. The Caspian Sea, at some time was given a name realting to Hazrat Khizar in this connection and not on account of Gujars. Again, Gujars, Gujaras or Gurjaras, did not come to Sub-Continent with Huns. They were actually driven out of the central asian steppes by the Huns before the arrival of Jesus Christ. It is after this loss of their grazing lands to Huns, that they started migrating towards south east. Eventually they found a refuge in northern India and formed a Kingdom of their own called GUJARAT in the areas adjoining rivers Jehlum, Chenab, Tavi and Ravi. It includes the present day, Kashmir, Jammu, Upper Western Punjab including present day, Gujrat, Gujranwala, Kharian, Jehlum, Upper Eastern Punjab including present day Gurdaspur, Chandigarh etc. The Huns later followed them to the Indian Sub-Continent, but could not defeat them because by then the Gujars, thanks to the fertility of the land of The Punjab and lower Kashmir, had become quite advanced, forceful and fortified. It was actually the Aryans, who after Huns, directed their attention towards the Indian Sub-Continent and started raiding the Gujar settlements and eventually succeeded in occupying their lands. The Gujars had to leave their abode once again, this time at the hands of Aryans. They were driven out and were pushed further south along the eastern banks of Five river system of The Punjab. Here they found refuge in the present day lower Rajisthan, formed a smaller kingdom and named it GUJARAT. It included the present day Indian Gujarat, Kathiawar and Junagarh etc. The remaining elements of the Gujars in The Punjab and Kashmir, were forced to adopt menial jobs by the Aryans, including the breeding of cattle and not the horses, for milk, meat, tilling, ploughing and transport. They were deliberately not given the breeding of horses, as to own one was the privellege of the ruling class and not the ones being ruled. That is how the rulers became the cattle breeders. In The Punjab, most of the Gujars use an honourific title of Chaudhry before their names e.g., Chaudhry Rahmat Ali. It must be remembered that Chaudhry is an honourific tilte and not a caste in itself. This title is also used in different areas by different castes, e.g., it is used by Rajputs, Arains, Jatts in different areas. Presently, Gujars are scattered throughout Pakistan. Although their number is quite little in Balochistan, yet they can be found in Quetta, Naushki. In Sarhad, they can be found in Peshawar, Abbottabad, Hazara. In Sindh, they are settled in small numbers in rural areas but mostly in Karachi. Their maximum concentration is in The Punjab, where they are present in large numbers in Gujrat, Jehlum, Kharian, Gujranwala, Shekhupura, Faisalabad and Jhang etc. In Azad Kashmir too, they are found in Muzaffarabad and Hattian Bala. Over here, I would like to narrate a brief account of a great, Gujar Hero of Kashmir movement. He is hardly known as freedom fighter, but is more popular as a saint. He was infact, a renowned Sufi of the Naqshbandi Mujadadi order. His name was Hazrat Sufi Faqir Muhammad, and was a Gujar. He belonged to a village called Daman Basauli, in Tehsil Hattian Bala, of District Muzaffarabad, of Azad Kashmir. He was a soldier in the British Army, but with storng love for the Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad, peace be upon him. He was once over whelmed by the love of Holy Prophet and set out to find a Master, Mentor, Teacher, Murshid, Sheikh, whatever you may call. He travelled all the way from Kashmir and eventually reached Lahore where he found Hazrat Sufi Sayyed Abdul Qadir Shah, Naqshbandi Mujadadai Qadri as a perect teacher, who bestowed upon him Khilafat and sent him back to Kashmir. Afterwards, he left the British Army and started following a simple life. In 1947, at the time of Indian intervention in Kashmir affairs, he gathered Kashmiri freedom fighters at his own in a place called Saran Galla near Chakothi. He was among the first local who unfirled the flag of independence in Hattian Bala, but you would never find his name in any book, article or paper. He single handedly, alongwith his bunch of freedom fighters took the brunt of Indian Assault in Chakothi and Pandu Sectors and kept on fighting till a Company of the 2nd Battallion of the 1st Punjab Regiment of Pakistan Army was despatched to that area under the Command of Captain Sarwar Shaheed Nisahn-e-Haider. It would be quite interesting to note, that before he relieved his self assigned duty to Pakistan Army, he prayed before Allah Almighty and asked for His blessings to curtail the Indian Attack. He also prayed for the success of Captain Sarawr Shaheed, Nishan-e-Haider, who, by the grace of Allah Almighty, succeeded in thwarting the Indian attack at the cost of his life. After relieving his self assigned duties to Captain Sarwar Shaheed Hazrat Sufi Faqir Muhammad, gathered other Kashmirir freedom fighters, volunteers including The Punjabis from Jehlum and Mahsuds from Sarahd. He again attacked at his own in the Uri sector and became victorious on his front. Later afer the ceasefire, Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan visited the area and addressed a gathering in Saran Galla, where he acknowledged the efforts of Hazrat Sufi Faqir Muhammad, and also called him an Honourary General. It was later groups of freedom fightere like these, formed by a Gujar Saint, which were converted into Azad Regiments of Kashmir or Azad Forces. Hazrat Sufi Faqir Muhammad passed away in 1953 and was burried in the town of Daman Basauli, in Hattian Balla near Muzafarabad. People from different areas of Pakistan come to his shrine to offer Fatiha and pay homage. Another living proof of the greatness of the Allah's Saints was seen in October 2005 Earthquake, when all of the village Daman Basauli was levelled to ground, except ofcourse the shrine of Hazrat Sufi Faqir Muhammad, his old house and its adjoining Masjid.
Gujars like Chaudhry Rahmat Ali and Hazrat Sufi Faqir Muhammad Naqshbandi Mujadadi have made me to respect the Gujars from the core of my heart.
Have you ever lived in Pakistan among PAKISTANIS???? Phuleasee keep your philosophy to yourself if you have never lived or friended with punjabis 
You also need lot of growing up to do like Anil.. What the heck is up with you guys(pathan ) obsessing to show off that Pathans are lighter in color?? does that make you smarter??hell NO.
), glowing, flowless and not hairy.
, what I mean is that physical appearence especially something as trivial as - Are your genes off-white or brown - is an incredibly stupid thing to debate. The political climate of these times makes it even more trivial.
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