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    Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
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    1. #19
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      for the record - i believe that anyone who says he or she is Muslim is a Muslim and only Allah can judge. so none of my business or no one else's business.

      however, just looking at the qadiani beliefs, they seem to be in contradiction to core Islamic beliefs.

      so, to socially provide guidance to our children and other Muslims, we must tell them clearly what we think so in future they do not get under any false impressions.

      for example, my parents are mixed. mom is shia and dad is sunni. sis chose to be shia, i chose to be sunni. but we consider OK to marry in our famil to shia or sunni. we do not consider OK to marry ahmadi.

    2. #20
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      http://www.paklinks.com/gs/all-views...-comments.html

      The OP doesn't learn a thing, does he?

      I think the last post in that thread was by a mod.

      Moderator's Warning:

      Such GS policies are not limited to one section only. If something is not allowed in one section then it is NOT allowed in other sections as well.
      You're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or who says it. ~ Malcolm X

    3. #21
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      I dont know exact number but know that one of the most brilliant bureaucrate of Pakistan Civil Services today and now Chairman Federal Borad of Revenue , the highest and most powerful economic,revenue ,fiscal policy and taxation policy making body of Pakistan is Qadiani , Mr. Sohail Ahmed who raised the tax level to record in 62 years history , praised for his outstanding reforms by WB,IMF and ADB recently. He and Shaukat Tareen were working hard for bringing ' Big Industrialists and influencial people ' in tax net and also FBR and Shaukat Tareen strongly opposed PPP rental power plants but Shaukat Tareen have to resign in front of these Tax-Chors a week ago. Chairman FBR is originally from Model Town,Lahore.Ex Commissioner Bahawalpur and Secreatry Palnning Punjab and helped my father's extension when he was in Punjab. He is PM Yousaf Gillani's favourite bureacrate for his outstanding performance and he specially took him from Punjab Government and shifted him to Federal Services and made him Chairman FBR.


      http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=26516

      http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=26176

      http://www.thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=99089
      Last edited by desert bird; Mar 6th, 2010 at 09:06 AM.

    4. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by questioner_ View Post
      Popat
      Let's please correct the facts. Some years ago, someone who was qadiani proposed for me and my sister (they were two brothers). We had been friends but it was news to us that they are ahmadis. At that time i did not know who ahmadis are much. Thus i had done some research on who they are cause i did not know much, bas suna hua tha un ke baray mayn. For that i had also sent PM's to some people who seemed ahmadi on gupshup. In meanwhile those 2 brothers and us 2 sisters got to know each other better and hamari baat aik tarha se pakki bhi ho gai thi. But obviously after finding the truth (and it was sad because they had hidden and lied about LOT of things about their true beliefs from us!) we were appalled and said NO WAY. That was a story done and over with time ago. My sister is already married now to someone else and I am also engaged to be married later this year
      I am still surprised those people had the guts to approach us! And lie to us too... I still don't know why ahmadis don't openly tell people their true beliefs. Itna chupatay kyu hen.
      I am doing some academic research on deviant sects of Islam (I am a Religious Studies student), and therefore these questions
      want more details?
      questioner_
      im surprised as to how you're approaching the matter. Your question should only be pointing to the population of Ahmadis. Though, there are many questions or claims of your understanding of Ahmadiyyat rather.. that you raised which as much as i love to reply to you , i will not.. or atleast will try not to. I'm sorry that you came across such ahmadis in ur life who knew very little of their beliefs and were unable to convey their beliefs to you openly. This however, should not be taken as the first and last encounter of Ahmadis with you. You will come across many learned ahmadi muslims in your lifetime, if you continue to seek knowledge of Ahmadiyyat and want to have debate with Ahmadis on certain matters..

      Quote Originally Posted by questioner_ View Post
      Muslims don't take bait so its not possible to count Muslim population. Ahmadis take bait, and they REGISTER all members. So it's very possible to find out total ahmadi population. they maintain scrupulous records as i said.
      As you claimed, you are a religion studies student, so i ask you when someone becomes Muslim, which sect is s/he counted in? Muslims were not to be divided in to sects but unfortunately they have. Is it then a legitimate question if i ask you what the population of Sunnis or Shias is globally?

      Ahmadis when taking bait becomes Muslims first and then the last condition of bait is to accept Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) as the promised Messiah and Imam Mahdi (AS). That is when one becomes Ahmadi. The last condition. Since you have done the research you should know about it.

      I'd again ask you to give me a rough estimate as to how many Muslims were there in the first 100 years of Islam being established? Surely, Muslims (sunnis ,shias etc..) dont take bait but when someone does become muslim he is required to say kalma shahadah and to testify that he believe Muhammad PBUH to be Allah's prophet and his messenger. There you go. That is bait right there.

      Following is a clip of the bait.. Do tell me anything that goes against Islam. It is just a testimony, like accepting Muhammad PBUH as the prophet of Allah. Trust me, even you'll have to say that when and IF the imam Mahdi appears to accept him. ALAS, i hope you wont be as arrogant then.



      Quote Originally Posted by questioner_ View Post
      it may sound harsh to you but we are Muslims and we need to Obey Allah's Orders. The punishment for a Murtid in Islam is Death. No less.

      For theft it is cutting of hands.
      For murder it is murder.


      And we don't need to compare with other religions.
      Not just harsh. Very harsh. It is people like you who are spreading hatred all over the world unfortunately. Such hatred is not what my Islam teaches. My Islam teaches me love for humanity, encouraging brotherhood, promoting peace, enabling people to revert to Islam by heart. Im not sure where you're learning your Islam from but i do suggest you keep your islam to yourself, and do more of your so called research on your own beliefs. Whats your definition of murtid? when one becomes shia from sunni.. is he deemed to be killed? Ahmadis are Muslims, and they are infact the very best example of Islam nowadays, being beaten up, not been accepted in Pakistan, being prosecuted.. and not a word they utter against people like you. Our punishment and rewards are secured by Allah.
      You are suppose to make people Muslims and not scare them away that once u become Muslim you have no other way out. GIVE ME A BREAK ! get your beliefs straight and i bet people wont leave your version of Islam. An Islam that tells you to kill someone based on ANY circumstance is NOT what my Islam is. Our religion , Islam, the perfect religion, is different from yours. Dont make it complicated for yourself. You have arguments against us, bring it on the table, instead of taking it in the streets and making your swords sharp.




      Quote Originally Posted by questioner_ View Post
      goodnews - are you serious? i dont have much exposure to the peers. but that is also next on my research. i am starting with qadianis and ismailis. i know people hold peers in high regard but sajda is ummmm not good. basically giving TOO much respect to any person and obeying his orders blindly is shirk.
      obeying your aalims blindly is shirk too?
      sajda to peers is 'not good' or absolutely forbidden in Islam ?
      if u have done ur research, you must know Qadianis are people from Qadian, India, Ahmadis are what they're known for.

      peace.
      Last edited by Mr.Popat; Mar 6th, 2010 at 01:34 PM.
      Masih k hum ghulam hain jo waqt ka imam hai
      Jo uss ko maanta nahi wo waqt ka ghulam hai

    5. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by questioner_ View Post
      Popat
      Let's please correct the facts. Some years ago, someone who was qadiani proposed for me and my sister (they were two brothers). We had been friends but it was news to us that they are ahmadis. At that time i did not know who ahmadis are much. Thus i had done some research on who they are cause i did not know much, bas suna hua tha un ke baray mayn. For that i had also sent PM's to some people who seemed ahmadi on gupshup. In meanwhile those 2 brothers and us 2 sisters got to know each other better and hamari baat aik tarha se pakki bhi ho gai thi. But obviously after finding the truth (and it was sad because they had hidden and lied about LOT of things about their true beliefs from us!) we were appalled and said NO WAY. That was a story done and over with time ago. My sister is already married now to someone else and I am also engaged to be married later this year
      I am still surprised those people had the guts to approach us! And lie to us too... I still don't know why ahmadis don't openly tell people their true beliefs. Itna chupatay kyu hen.
      I am doing some academic research on deviant sects of Islam (I am a Religious Studies student), and therefore these questions
      want more details?
      questioner_
      im surprised as to how you're approaching the matter. Your question should only be pointing to the population of Ahmadis. Though, there are many questions or claims of your understanding of Ahmadiyyat rather.. that you raised which as much as i love to reply to you , i will not.. or atleast will try not to. I'm sorry that you came across such ahmadis in ur life who knew very little of their beliefs and were unable to convey their beliefs to you openly. This however, should not be taken as the first and last encounter of Ahmadis with you. You will come across many learned ahmadi muslims in your lifetime, if you continue to seek knowledge of Ahmadiyyat and want to have debate with Ahmadis on certain matters..

      Quote Originally Posted by questioner_ View Post
      Muslims don't take bait so its not possible to count Muslim population. Ahmadis take bait, and they REGISTER all members. So it's very possible to find out total ahmadi population. they maintain scrupulous records as i said.
      As you claimed, you are a religion studies student, so i ask you when someone becomes Muslim, which sect is s/he counted in? Muslims were not to be divided in to sects but unfortunately they have. Is it then a legitimate question if i ask you what the population of Sunnis or Shias is globally?

      Ahmadis when taking bait becomes Muslims first and then the last condition of bait is to accept Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) as the promised Messiah and Imam Mahdi (AS). That is when one becomes Ahmadi. The last condition. Since you have done the research you should know about it.

      I'd again ask you to give me a rough estimate as to how many Muslims were there in the first 100 years of Islam being established? Surely, Muslims (sunnis ,shias etc..) dont take bait but when someone does become muslim he is required to say kalma shahadah and to testify that he believe Muhammad PBUH to be Allah's prophet and his messenger. There you go. That is bait right there.

      Following is a clip of the bait.. Do tell me anything that goes against Islam.



      Quote Originally Posted by questioner_ View Post
      it may sound harsh to you but we are Muslims and we need to Obey Allah's Orders. The punishment for a Murtid in Islam is Death. No less.

      For theft it is cutting of hands.
      For murder it is murder.


      And we don't need to compare with other religions.
      Not just harsh. Very harsh. It is people like you who are spreading hatred all over the world unfortunately. Such hatred is not what my Islam teaches. My Islam teaches me love for humanity, encouraging brotherhood, promoting peace, enabling people to revert to Islam by heart. Im not sure where you're learning your Islam from but i do suggest you keep your islam to yourself, and do more of your so called research on your own beliefs. Whats your definition of murtid? when one becomes shia from sunni.. is he deemed to be killed? Ahmadis are Muslims, and they are infact the very best example of Islam nowadays, being beaten up, not been accepted in Pakistan, being prosecuted.. and not a word they utter against people like you. Our punishment and rewards are secured by Allah.
      You are suppose to make people Muslims and not scare them away that once u become Muslim you have no other way out. GIVE ME A BREAK ! get your beliefs straight and i bet people wont leave your version of Islam. An Islam that tells you to kill someone based on ANY circumstance is NOT what my Islam is. Our religion , Islam, the perfect religion, is different from yours. Dont make it complicated for yourself. You have arguments against us, bring it on the table, instead of taking it in the streets and making your swords sharp.




      Quote Originally Posted by questioner_ View Post
      goodnews - are you serious? i dont have much exposure to the peers. but that is also next on my research. i am starting with qadianis and ismailis. i know people hold peers in high regard but sajda is ummmm not good. basically giving TOO much respect to any person and obeying his orders blindly is shirk.
      obeying your aalims blindly is shirk too?
      sajda to peers is 'not good' or absolutely forbidden in Islam ?
      if u have done ur research, you must know Qadianis are people from Qadian, India, Ahmadis are what they're known for.

      peace.
      Masih k hum ghulam hain jo waqt ka imam hai
      Jo uss ko maanta nahi wo waqt ka ghulam hai

    6. #24
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      You failed to answer me if it will be acceptable by you if say in England or USA they dont let you built mosques and practice Islam as Muslims openly do? will it be ok for you ? lets not talk about them killing people for embracing Islam.
      Masih k hum ghulam hain jo waqt ka imam hai
      Jo uss ko maanta nahi wo waqt ka ghulam hai

    7. #25
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      db - i have no doubt that Ahmadis are well educated. i don't want to offend sentiments of people here and cause fights. i have opened this thread simply to gather information. however, just let me say that ahmadis have FACILITIES available to them GLOBALLY which are not available to MANY poor Muslims.

      and this does not mean that other people are not educated. or advanced.

      plus these fancy indexes are not the best way to measure performance of public office holders in pakistan. pakistan is a 3rd world economy with peculiar characteristics. it cannot necessarily be gauged with same indexes used globally. there are many many factors playing here.



      Mr. Popat
      guess what, i have already seen this video i am a sunni but know more about ahmadiyat than many young ahmadis my age as i told you, i am a religious studies student and have done extensive research on many faiths.
      in fact, you can feel free to ask me some questions, im not claiming to be extremely learned, much on the contrary, but i might be able to at least point you to sources of info
      the purpose of this thread is to gather info about numbers. as that is something i could never find. the question you're asking me about shia/sunni, i've answered that already, no need for me to repeat.

      i do not want to start a theological debate here about the wrong concepts in ahmadiyat which go against islam. firstly there are too many. secondly, people have done that job already, the web is filled with such material.
      i don't hold anything against the ahmadis i encountered in my life. i only pray for them that may Allah guide them
      secondly, i have nothing to debate about because i have formed my opinions directly from the excerpts of books of your promised Messiah.


      Mr Popat, i am sorry but you again seem to be misleading please download the ahmadi initiation form. kindly see in it the clauses. and please tell me whether there is a clause in it or not about ahmadi khilafat or not
      and please tell me or not whether ahmadis believe that all other non-ahmadis are kafirs are not. I cannot be fooled Mr. Popat in this matter as i know Very Well about all of it So don't try please.

      here you go, if you haven't seen this already, here is the ahmadi bait form
      alislam.org/introduction/initiation.html
      download the PDF file here.

      and i am sorry but sure Islam is a religion of love, but that doesn't mean we start accepting wrong things and accepting everything just to give "other people a good impression". let's call a spade a spade. Yes Islam says cut hands of the thief. yes Islam says kill the Murtid. and the person who becomes ahmadi from a non-ahmadi Muslim, according to consensus of all Muslim ulema, has become a Murtid.

      Mr Popat,
      Islam does not CONTRADICT any teaching of true Christianity or true Judaism. Islam is the culmination and perfection of these 2 faiths. However, ahmadiyat is a distortion of true Islam. so yo cannot draw the comparison you have drawn in your last post above.

      and i am sorry for caling ahmadis qadianis but thats just by habit. it was not mean as an insult by any means. i have read that ahmadis consider being called qadianis insulting so i apologise about that.
      Last edited by questioner_; Mar 6th, 2010 at 02:47 PM.

    8. #26
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      and love for all hatred for none? this is a farce. complete farce. ahmadis kick out anybody from their jamaat who disobeys the khalifa's orders. Parents don't speak to their own children for YEARS or even LIFETIME if they marry outside the jamaat. i know of such people. and ahmadis clearly spew hatred against Pakistan and Islam. i have known ahmadis very closely and i know this for a fact. they have lots of bitterness about Pakistan and mainstream Muslims.


      anyways. let's please not get into the discussion. i only need to get from some ahmadi sources, for the sake of my research, accurate figures about global ahmadi population. thanks.

    9. #27
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      if you have formed your own opinion then so be it. I have read the bait form.. i find no clause whatsoever in it. i will sign it again if anyone tells me to without thinking twice.

      Since you do not want to get into debates and show me the right path.. i decide not to waste my time.

      Can you tell me the definition of murtid? why have i never encountered sunnis killing ahmadis outside of Pakistan ? Does the same Islam that they've been following in Pakistan not remain the same in other countries? You say a person is a muslim if he says he is.. is it still ok to go with your gut feeling and kill him because you think hes not muslim?
      Masih k hum ghulam hain jo waqt ka imam hai
      Jo uss ko maanta nahi wo waqt ka ghulam hai

    10. #28
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      Mr Popat.
      yes i believe if a person is a true believing sunni and then he becomes an ahmadi knowing truly what ahmadiyyat is, he is a Murtid and must be killed according to the teachings of Islam.
      if he is a born ahmadi, he is not a murtid. but it is duty of other Muslims to show him right path.



      you do not see the clause about obedience to the khalifa in the bait form? tell me, is that a pre-requisite of Islam?

      yes i really do not want to get into a theological debate in this thread. for me it is enough to know that a person who
      - claimed to superior than the Prophet (saw) [NAUZUBILLAH]
      - son of God [NAUZUBILLAH]
      - made wrong prophecies
      - used abusive language towards other men specifically in his writing
      is not worth respecting by any Muslim. leave alone being thought of as the Imam Mehdi and given the rank ahmadis give him.

      If you are willing to open your eyes to the truth, i have many links. i will PM those to you in a day or two Inshallah. however, that's not the purpose of this thread i am seeking information on numbers, as i mentioned previously.

    11. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by questioner_ View Post
      and love for all hatred for none? this is a farce. complete farce. ahmadis kick out anybody from their jamaat who disobeys the khalifa's orders. Parents don't speak to their own children for YEARS or even LIFETIME if they marry outside the jamaat. i know of such people. and ahmadis clearly spew hatred against Pakistan and Islam. i have known ahmadis very closely and i know this for a fact. they have lots of bitterness about Pakistan and mainstream Muslims.


      anyways. let's please not get into the discussion. i only need to get from some ahmadi sources, for the sake of my research, accurate figures about global ahmadi population. thanks.
      non-sense.! Love for all hatred for none is what Ahmadi have been following so far. You are destroying our mosques, giving wajabul qatl fatwas against us.. doing anything and everything possible to stop us from spreading but failing in every attempt.

      love for all hatred for none has nothing to do with how the jamaat is running. Yes, they are kicked outside of jamaat if they do anything against Islam. Fornication, etc is an example.. they're kicked outside jamaat but they're still ahmadis by heart if they accept Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) as the Imam Mahdi (AS).

      anyway.. lets not get into useless debates because you said u didnt know ahmadis before those two guys approached you and ur sister.. anyway.. if u think of anything that we believe thats against islam then do let me know. just pointing fingers wont help.

      has anyone ever taken this belief of killing murtids to courts of UK or other countries? even pakistan ?

      what is murtid according to you?..
      Masih k hum ghulam hain jo waqt ka imam hai
      Jo uss ko maanta nahi wo waqt ka ghulam hai

    12. #30
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      > I have read the bait form.. i find no clause whatsoever in it. i will sign it again if anyone tells me to without thinking twice.


      why? is it an ayat? or hadith? why would you sign it so blindly? why such blind obedience to the khalifa and ahmadi jamaat
      i am sure you know that in Islam we are not even supposed to follow orders of our PARENTS blindly. Adult Muslims must critically analyse all actions and only do what is Islamic. then why ahmadis follow their khalifa blindly?

      again, if you have info on numbers, please provide.

      i do not want to digress from main topic

    13. #31
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      Mr Popat
      i do not support destruction of ahmadi mosques. neither do i believe all ahmadis are wajib ul qatal. i do not even have issues if ahmadis want to spread what they believe in and talk about their beliefs with others.
      my ISSUE is when Ahmadis claim that what they preach is in accordance with ISLAM. b/c as i said, ahmadiyat and Islam are in Contradiction.

      so Mr Popat, marrying a sunni is something against Islam eh? thats why you kick such people outside your jamaat?

      and they're still ahmadis but kicked from jamaat? what's the point of that? you disgrace them and their families in your whole community. why so?

      secondly, yes, i did not knwo much about ahmadiyyat before "those two guys" - but i have always been doing religious studies - and have recently done a lot of research.

      and Islamic laws do not need to be decided in courts of law of other countries

    14. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by questioner_ View Post
      Mr Popat.
      yes i believe if a person is a true believing sunni and then he becomes an ahmadi knowing truly what ahmadiyyat is, he is a Murtid and must be killed according to the teachings of Islam.
      if he is a born ahmadi, he is not a murtid. but it is duty of other Muslims to show him right path.



      you do not see the clause about obedience to the khalifa in the bait form? tell me, is that a pre-requisite of Islam?

      yes i really do not want to get into a theological debate in this thread. for me it is enough to know that a person who
      - claimed to superior than the Prophet (saw) [NAUZUBILLAH]
      - son of God [NAUZUBILLAH]
      - made wrong prophecies
      - used abusive language towards other men specifically in his writing
      is not worth respecting by any Muslim. leave alone being thought of as the Imam Mehdi and given the rank ahmadis give him.

      If you are willing to open your eyes to the truth, i have many links. i will PM those to you in a day or two Inshallah. however, that's not the purpose of this thread i am seeking information on numbers, as i mentioned previously.
      you've been reading some anti-ahmadiyya websites.. thats what you've been doing. Please let me know one book you've completely read?

      those claims are taken wrong meanings by you and your aalims..and following them blindly is making you commit shirk.

      obedience to khilafat is according to Islam. it is the khalifa's duty to spread the word of the prophet He is khalifa of. Has Hazrat Abu Bakr, Usman , Umar, Ali (RA) not took the message of Islam and spread it as much as they could? do u not show obedience to khulfa e rashideen ? when u accept Muhammad PBUH, you are submitting yourself to complete obedience to Muhammad PBUH and the khalifas as well. Are you not?

      I suggest you start 'researching' once again.
      Masih k hum ghulam hain jo waqt ka imam hai
      Jo uss ko maanta nahi wo waqt ka ghulam hai

    15. #33
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      a Murtid is one who after accepting true faith/belief (Islam) rejects it.

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      Mr Popat - i have not just read anti-ahmadi websites. i have also seen a LOT of clips on MTA, i have read ahmadi websites in detail - and i have also followed ahmadi/anti-ahmadi discourse
      i have not read any book in entirety but i have read enough excerpts. eventually i plan to also read the full books. the excerpts themselves however have been eye opening.

      and no, Muslims are not supposed to BLINDLY follow the khalifas. we only blindly follow Quran and Ahadith.

    17. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by questioner_ View Post
      Mr Popat
      i do not support destruction of ahmadi mosques. neither do i believe all ahmadis are wajib ul qatal. i do not even have issues if ahmadis want to spread what they believe in and talk about their beliefs with others.
      my ISSUE is when Ahmadis claim that what they preach is in accordance with ISLAM. b/c as i said, ahmadiyat and Islam are in Contradiction.

      so Mr Popat, marrying a sunni is something against Islam eh? thats why you kick such people outside your jamaat?

      and they're still ahmadis but kicked from jamaat? what's the point of that? you disgrace them and their families in your whole community. why so?

      secondly, yes, i did not knwo much about ahmadiyyat before "those two guys" - but i have always been doing religious studies - and have recently done a lot of research.

      and Islamic laws do not need to be decided in courts of law of other countries
      i knew that was coming from your side.

      Ahmadi girl is not allowed to marry a non-ahmadi guy, until he accepts Ahmadiyyat. It just isnt allowed. The reason of saying that they're no more in jamat is so that nobody collect chanda from them. Its a complicated matter.

      you said ure not in support of destruction of ahmadi mosques , and on other hand you say they are to be killed? why such double standards?

      Will you kill an Ahmadi to gain sawaab? im surprised how the killing of murtid issue is something u keep ignoring and hasnt been asnwering in detail.
      Masih k hum ghulam hain jo waqt ka imam hai
      Jo uss ko maanta nahi wo waqt ka ghulam hai

    18. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by questioner_ View Post
      Mr Popat - i have not just read anti-ahmadi websites. i have also seen a LOT of clips on MTA, i have read ahmadi websites in detail - and i have also followed ahmadi/anti-ahmadi discourse
      i have not read any book in entirety but i have read enough excerpts. eventually i plan to also read the full books. the excerpts themselves however have been eye opening.

      and no, Muslims are not supposed to BLINDLY follow the khalifas. we only blindly follow Quran and Ahadith.
      just as i expected. No book .. exerpts

      NO ONE said to blindly follow khalifas.. give me a break now ..relax.. your information is as wrong as it can get. I assure u what you've been taught or been reading is completely opposite to wat reality is. We say we abide by all the maaroof decisions made by khalifa..

      you unfotunately blindly follow whatever interpretation is thrown to you of Quran and hadith.
      Masih k hum ghulam hain jo waqt ka imam hai
      Jo uss ko maanta nahi wo waqt ka ghulam hai

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