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    Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
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    1. #37
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      I didn't ask your opinion about Pashtuns.
      Plus this question was directed towards Pakistanis.

      ----

      If you think Pashtuns were the nuisance then so were Sikhs towards Kashmiri Muslims (and also Sindhi Muslims to some extent).

      http://www.mangral.com/Ranjit_Singh_and_Dogras.html

      The 27 years of Sikh rule followed by the 100 years of Dogra rule were a period considered to be the biggest calamity ever to befall the people of Kashmir. Although the majority of the population was muslim many mosques were closed, cow slaughter was prohibited and an immense tax burden was placed on the people. Ranjit Singh even taxed the poor people something which had never happened before under muslim rule. Muslim's were denied access to basic education, were banned from carrying arms and were not admitted to the armed services. The result was mass emigration of Kashmiri's to the muslim areas of the Punjab where they were granted refuge, education and employment in military service.
      Last edited by khoji; Apr 22nd, 2011 at 02:33 PM.

    2. #38
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      Sikhs harbored lot of prejudice against muslim Punjabis till 80s when the faced the wrath of hindus. It was due to the cruelties of Sikhs that Punjabi muslims wanted separation from them.
      Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment.

    3. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
      Sikhs harbored lot of prejudice against muslim Punjabis till 80s when the faced the wrath of hindus. It was due to the cruelties of Sikhs that Punjabi muslims wanted separation from them.
      iam not much expert about khalsa warriors.but from my sikh friends i hear about what mughals did to them.there is always two sides to the coin.

      lol about hindu wrath,there is no such problem right now,you may here from some NRI sikhs from uk and australia blah blah khalistan.it's about the sikh in punjab what they think.84 riots is definitely black mark in history,what they want is justice brought down on criminals

      punjab right now is one of the richest state in india along with southern states
      Last edited by babloos; Apr 23rd, 2011 at 02:17 AM.
      Arleitter likes this.

    4. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by babloos View Post
      iam not much expert about khalsa warriors.but from my sikh friends i hear about what mughals did to them.there is always two sides to the coin.

      lol about hindu wrath,there is no such problem right now,you may here from some NRI sikhs from uk and australia blah blah khalistan.it's about the sikh in punjab what they think.84 riots is definitely black mark in history,what they want is justice brought down on criminals

      punjab right now is one of the richest state in india along with southern states

      Only a very marginal number of Sikhs are supporting the call for Khalistan. Over the years their number has gone down drastically and nowadays nobody is interested in that.Moreover a strategic position of Khalistan was totally Nil even at the height of Punjab extremism.I am opening another thread on that.

      Oh Sindh Muhinji, Soonha tuhinjiya Mathaan.

    5. #41
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arleitter View Post
      Only a very marginal number of Sikhs are supporting the call for Khalistan. Over the years their number has gone down drastically and nowadays nobody is interested in that.Moreover a strategic position of Khalistan was totally Nil even at the height of Punjab extremism.I am opening another thread on that.
      check again i meant NRI SIKHS, who settled way to back in uk and other countries mostly from pakistan side punjab have this attitude,they don't represent punjab in india

      lot of sikhs are integrated into india with various bussiness, all the key positions in army are occupied by sikhs.

    6. #42
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      Quote Originally Posted by babloos View Post
      check again i meant NRI SIKHS, who settled way to back in uk and other countries mostly from pakistan side punjab have this attitude,they don't represent punjab in india

      lot of sikhs are integrated into india with various bussiness, all the key positions in army are occupied by sikhs.

      Then you can not call them N.R.I 's... they are not N.R.I's... N.R.I=Non Resident Indians. They are N.R.P 's=Non Resident Pakistanis.

      My cousins back in Karachi Hyderabad and Larkana are Hindus but they are not indians,they are Pakistanis.

      Oh Sindh Muhinji, Soonha tuhinjiya Mathaan.

    7. #43
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      Quote Originally Posted by babloos View Post
      iam not much expert about khalsa warriors.but from my sikh friends i hear about what mughals did to them.there is always two sides to the coin.

      Yes quite right.


      Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
      Sikhs harbored lot of prejudice against muslim Punjabis till 80s when the faced the wrath of hindus. It was due to the cruelties of Sikhs that Punjabi muslims wanted separation from them.

      Again your both right to an extent. It's a long and complex story quite worthy of a thread in itself but yes there are two sides to the story.

      As for the Khalsa it was the mainstay of the Sikh army. Khalsa simply means rightous Army, and I have had the pleasure of working with the Akhali Nihang Warriors of Amritsar's Golden Temple. They really are formidable and worthy opponents and I have a deep respect for them, Akhali Nihang Sikh's were among the best CQC fighters in the Sub-Continent and to this day thier strict dicipline and rigorous training is among the best in the World and they have several techniques unique to themselves. I am honoured to have respectfully taken part in the Akhara (combat tournament) with such top notch fighters and the Sikhs cannot be denied that they are very efficient and skilled when they devote themselves to thier cause. Much like Warriors anywhere in the World.

      As for the subject about Khalistan I think that too is worth a seperate thread suffice to say that Sikh Muslim tensions have been most strenous and it's always the few who make life hard for the many.

      Icono Bhai is right in the dark days the Sikhs were just as troublesome as the Muslims had been but we should learn from the past. Personally I link it all to the old "divide and rule" strategies of the likes of Imperialist forces from outside such as the British.
      UZ, babloos and Southie like this.
      Everyone knows "Jaws" was Chuck Norris's Goldfish, but not many folk know that "Godzilla" was Faris Udeen's pet Iguana.

    8. #44
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      ^^

      dude you always comes up with valid arguements

    9. #45
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      Quote Originally Posted by waleedhbk View Post
      Yeah ur right .....Lahore is full of rich history and culture
      and khabay...if you know what i mean...

    10. #46
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      So I found an article but Sikh point of view.
      Other campaigns.

      After the Treaty of Amritsar with British which simply stated that the International boundry of line between the Sarkar Khalsa and British India is Satluj. Ranjit singh was virtually made master of all the territory to the west of Satluj. But.. there was several small kingdoms, like Peshawar, Rawalpindi, Kashmir, Multan, Sialkote which were ruled by Afghani or local chiefs.

      Thus, Ranjit singh first turned towards North towards Kangra valley which was taken over from Raja Sansar Chand by Gurkhas. Ranjit Singh's forces fought with Gurkhas in Kangra Valley in the end the Gurkha leader Amar Singh thapa fled leaving the field to the Sikhs. Ranjit singh entered the fort of Kangra and held a royal Darbar which was attended by the hill chiefs of Chamba, nurpur, Kotla, Shahpur, Guler, Kahlur, Mandi, Suket and Kulu. Desa Singh Majithia was appointed governor of Kangra.
      Then Ranjit singh sent a force under the command of Hukma Singh Chimmi to Jammu and himself marched on to Khushab. The fort of Khushab was held by Jaffar Khan, a Baluch chief. He gave up the city and defended the fort stoutly. Ranjit singh invited him to vacate the fort and accept a jagir. In few months, Jaffar Khan accepted Ranjit singh's terms and gave up the fort. He was given a jagir and allowed to remain in Khushab with his family.

      Meanwhile, Shah Shuja was arrested by a Afghani Ata Mohammad Khan who was governor of Kashmir. Shah Shuja's wife Wafa Begum approached Ranjit Singh to get her husband out of Kashmir. Ranjit Singh wanted Kohinoor diamond and he agreed. Hari Singh Nalwa and other forces were dispatched along with the Afghani forces of Wafa Begum. The Sikhs and Afghans crossed the Pir Panjal and entered the valley of Kashmir towards the close of 1812. Shah Shuja was rescued from an undergrond dungeon by Sardar Nihal singh Attariwala. Hari Singh Nalwa was made a new governor of Kashmir by Ranjit Singh. Shah Shuja was set free. Shah Shuja invited Ranjit Singh to his house. A servant brought in a packet as they settled down in their seats after mutual exchange of courtesies. Ranjit singh watched eagerly as the stone was being slowly unwrapped. He was beside himself with joy when the Koh-i-nor, Mountain of Light was placed on his palm. The price of this stone at that time was 6 crore rupees which comes to about Two million American dollars with today's conversion factor. This diamond still exist in England and is part of one of the Royal stone's.

      Around this time, Ranjit singh also got the fort of Attock by daring operations of Hari Singh Nalwa and Desa Singh Majithia. Now Punjab under Ranjit Singh extended from Satluj to river attock and from Kashmir to Kasur. Early in 1817, Ranjit singh sent a body of troops to Multan under the command of Diwan Bhiwani Das to receive from Nawab Muzaffar Khan the tribute he owed to the Sikh Darbar. Bhiwani das laid siege to the city, but showed little vigour to pressing it. He made a secret pact with the Nawab which led Ranjit Singh to recall him and deprive him of his office. Ranjit Singh planned the afresh expedition and sent a strong force under his son Kharak Singh's charge. He arranged for supplies to be sent by boats down the river Ravi, the Chenab and the Jhelum. The system of passing letters was organised in such a manner that the Maharaja received the news from Multan by relays of messengers several times a day.
      The fort of Multan was one of the strongest in the country and Nawab Muzaffar Khan defended it with an equally strong heart. Kharak Singh's armies lay around it without making much headway. Ranjit Singh sent a big gun Zamzama along with Akali Phula singh's Nihang regiment. The Zamzama was fired with effect and the gates were blown in. Akali Phula singh made a sudden rush and took the garrison by surprise. The grey bearded Nawab stood in his way, sword in hand to fight, resolved to fight to death. His five sons died fighting. Two surviving sons were giving jagirs by Ranjit singh. their descendants are still in possession of those lands in Pakistan. Prince Kharak singh left Jodh Singh Kalsia with 600 men to guard the fort of Multan. Now Ranjit Singh southern boundry was Multan. In 1818, A.D. Ranjit singh won Rohtas, Rawal Pindi and Hasan Abdal. Then he made preparations to cross the river Attock and attack Peshawar. These conquests are greatly explained with the biography of Hari Singh Nalua . In 1819, Ranjit Singh had to attack Srinagar again, this time he made Diwan Moti Das Governor, with Sham singh Attariwala, Jawala Singh Padhania, and Misr Diwan Chand to further assist him in the operations in valley. Ten successive governors administered Kashmir during Sikh regime. One of them was prince Sher singh who carred the Sikh standard across the high mountains into Ladakh. The conquest of Ladakh valley which was strategically very important, made the frontier secure against the expanding influence of China. Sher Singh sent General Zorawar Singh to march towards Tibet. Garo and Rudok were occupied and the Lhasa armies attacked. Tibetian government signed a treaty with Zorawar's armies.

    11. #47
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      Quoting sikhs about their own ruler is a worthless exercise in understanding unbiased history.
      What do you expect sikhs to say about him?

    12. #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT View Post
      I personally hold that the mark of a great leader isn't their conquests and their other deeds, but rather their ability to create lasting, stable, powerful state that can endure for over 100 years against all challenges.

      By that measure, Ranjeet Singh clearly failed - he wasn't able to set in place a stable succession.

      Similarly, Queen Victoria failed as Empress of India - her British India was based on such inequality as to drive its subjects to seek to overthrow the system that ruled them.
      Very well put

    13. #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by Faris Udeen View Post
      The thing that really ruined the Sikhs was thier position and their Army as well. Rajit Singh had alway made a strong central force, true it was drilled in the European fashion and everything but under Ranjit Singh the Khalsa looked only to the Soveriegn for it's orders.

      After Ranjit Singh the Army was the perfect Democracy, with Panchayat system of elected spokesmen making all the big decisions, as an effective Army it was still powerfull but without the strong leadership and Central authority discipline broke down and the Army was betrayed by the Politicians and left to fend for itself.

      The other trouble for the Sikhs was they had always been the buffer zone between Muslim dominated Afghanistan and Hindu dominated India, after the campaigns of Ranjit Singh made the Sikhs enemies on both sides they became isolated and this is a lesson for both modern Pakistan and India.

      Becuase the Sikhs became dependant on the British more than the British depended on them the Punjabs fate was sealed.
      Never thought of it this way - their becoming isolated between Muslim/Hindu zones. Makes sense!

    14. #50
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      Was it Ranjit Singh who made Badshahi Masjid a horse stable and a garrison for his army?

      Wikipedia says it was him:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badshahi_Mosque

      On 7 July 1799, the Sikh militia of the Sukerchakia chief, Ranjit Singh, took control of Lahore.[4] After the capture of the city, the Badshahi Mosque was severely damaged when Ranjit Singh used its vast courtyard as a stable for his army's horses and its 80 hujras (small study rooms surrounding the courtyard) as quarters for his soldiers and as magazines for military stores. Ranjit Singh used the Hazuri Bagh, the enclosed garden next to the Mosque as his official royal court of audience.[5]
      In 1841, during the Sikh civil war, Ranjit Singh's son, Sher Singh, used the Mosque's large minarets for placement of zamburahs or light guns, which were placed atop the minarets to bombard the supporters of the Sikh Maharani Chand Kaur taking refuge in the besieged Lahore Fort, inflicting great damage to the Fort itself. In one of these bombardments, the Fort's Diwan-e-Aam (Hall of Public Audience) was destroyed (it was subsequently rebuilt by the British but never regained its original architectural splendour).[6] During this time, Henri De la Rouche, a French cavalry officer employed in the army of Sher Singh,[7] used a tunnel connecting the Badshahi Mosque to the Lahore Fort to temporarily store gunpowder.[8]

    15. #51
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      Quote Originally Posted by khoji View Post
      Was it Ranjit Singh who made Badshahi Masjid a horse stable and a garrison for his army?

      Wikipedia says it was him:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badshahi_Mosque

      On 7 July 1799, the Sikh militia of the Sukerchakia chief, Ranjit Singh, took control of Lahore.[4] After the capture of the city, the Badshahi Mosque was severely damaged when Ranjit Singh used its vast courtyard as a stable for his army's horses and its 80 hujras (small study rooms surrounding the courtyard) as quarters for his soldiers and as magazines for military stores. Ranjit Singh used the Hazuri Bagh, the enclosed garden next to the Mosque as his official royal court of audience.[5]
      In 1841, during the Sikh civil war, Ranjit Singh's son, Sher Singh, used the Mosque's large minarets for placement of zamburahs or light guns, which were placed atop the minarets to bombard the supporters of the Sikh Maharani Chand Kaur taking refuge in the besieged Lahore Fort, inflicting great damage to the Fort itself. In one of these bombardments, the Fort's Diwan-e-Aam (Hall of Public Audience) was destroyed (it was subsequently rebuilt by the British but never regained its original architectural splendour).[6] During this time, Henri De la Rouche, a French cavalry officer employed in the army of Sher Singh,[7] used a tunnel connecting the Badshahi Mosque to the Lahore Fort to temporarily store gunpowder.[8]
      Ranjeet singh was not as a big villain as made out to be, there is a book, titled, "HISTORY OF PUNJAB" written by Syad Mohamed Latif, who was the additional commissioner of Lahore. The book was published in 1888 (so just ~40 years after Ranjit Singh) so a great deal of it may be true. It was published by Civil and Military Gazette press. That will give better idea of Ranjit Singh.

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