vigoratus

Okay kiddo ;-) I'll get back to you when Pakistan starts taking orders for the fighter.

PS: JF-17 Thunder will be showcased at Dubai Air Show 2009. A hot hub for potential customers

Slickstar

lol good point.

shami2k

Some people just can't decide

maroush

From what i've read online, the spec seems to be pretty impressive, but PAF has a long way to go yet...

_Lahore_Ka_Cheetah

That (bolded) statement is just as ignorant as it can get.

If Sweden can sell Gripens (which use American GE-F414 engines) to other nations, why can't Pakistan?

Who said anything about Pakistan producing engines? If the US can sell F-16's using Canadian-built engines, why can't Pakistan?

Aisha Dubaiwali

Oh really? Then I will be seeing it.

vigoratus

Yes, i believe the Air Show is held sometime in October. If you do visit, please take pictures and share.

Aisha Dubaiwali

Yes it is in October but I didnt know this jet would be showcased there. Ofcourse I will take pictures, I never miss out on an oppurtunity.

pak-one

Go PAF!

Anyone have some independent analysis on JF-17 Thunder?

Also, if the planes are successfully integrated in PAF, are we using JF-7s to replace our aging Mirages?

I say PAF should consider Dassault Raffales as well.

burqaposhx

Such an innocent set of questions.

Ruskies make the engines for Cheeni planes. And Ruskies HATE Pakistani guts.

If Russia was in Pakistani block, sure we could use your examples. But unfortunately this is not the case.

Hope you understand.


In summary. Pakistan is getting Chinese kits, just like we get car kits from Suzuki, Honda, toyota etc. and then assemble them locally.

If someone wants to live in la la land by saying that Suzuki kit assembled car is MADE IN PAKISTAN, then who can stop him.

We should definitely celebrate kit assembly of Mr. Thunder,

but for cryin' out loud,

we should NOT f@rt about MAKING thunder and exporting it.

That's all.


p.s.
Chinese too are mostly kit assembly people and without USA and Japan supplying the designs of toys and tools, Cheeni industry will flop the next day.

In Asia, perhaps there are only two countries who produce original designs and that my friend are:


drum roll ----- Japan and to lesser extent S. Korea.

vigoratus

C'mon burqa. It's really getting boring now. Time to remove that veil from your eyes and see the facts for what they really are.

Every infant project starts like this. USA didn't get a top-notch prize for superiority in Aeronautics arena overnight. Germans were for a long time copying and using Russian designs but with improvements. When you improve something, you basically give it a new identity thereby making it indigenous in its own sense. That's the way of the trade. You learn, you improve, you rebuild and revolutionize the industry.

The point of the matter is, (and you can avoid accepting this as much as you want, it won't change) Pakistan HAS infact produced (kitted for your sensitive comfort) a fighter jet that can not only defend native skies, but also be exported to other willing nations who are already showing interest in it.

Now go ahead, repeat the same line like a parrot, or rephrase it to suit your purpose. JF-17 is here to stay as a Chinese-Pakistani fighter jet.

_Lahore_Ka_Cheetah

Uh huh.. right. Speaking of la la land, if Russia hates Pakistan's guts, why did they sell us their top of the line Mi-17 helicopters in 2006? Thats a nice quandary for you to chew over.

And I did not know that WS10 engines on Chinese planes were made in Russia. Buddy, I must agree with vigoratus, that you need to remove that burqa which is veiling your eyes.

Russia entered in to a contractual agreement with CAC to sell them engines, which they have, and they are no longer in Russian hands. Russia knows that the project is a joint-venture between PAC and CAC, so why on earth would they agree to supply the engines in the first place? Russia is too dependent on China, militarily and economically to terminate the deal just like that. Simply put, they don't have the balls to terminate the deal at this stage. China is their biggest weapons customer, and Russian economy is heavily dependent on arms sales.

So yes, Pakistan will be producing the Jf-17 fully (apart from the engines for now), and will be exporting it, just like we have produced and exported the MFI-17 Super Mushshak and the K-8. And if anything, the plane can be easily modified to fit other engines such as the WS10/13 and the M-88. As a matter of fact, there is already an indigenous Chinese engine (for this plane) in development, about to roll out soon. I don't see why Pakistan cannot build jet-engines; they've been doing so for decades. I bet you did not know that the entire Middle-East and South Asia's boeing fleet's regional engine overhauling is done in Pakistan.

mo293

There is no such thing as Hate-Love between countries, Its pure INTEREST, PEROID.

burqaposhx

calm down Cheeta Ji.

MI-17 are like AK-47. you can buy / sell them on the cheap. Here is a news for ya! every body and their cousin sells the MI-17s. See how USA is buying these for Pak.

U.S to Ship Russian-Made Helicopters to Pakistan (Update1) - Bloomberg.com


As I said, we should be humble about our capabilities instead of f@rting and "door ki chorain".

Any airplane can be looked at as 3 parts. Avionics, frame, engine. In case of fighter/bombers a fourth part aka weapon-delivery system+weapons is also there.

Every developed country who truly "manufactures" a war-plane, specializes in at least three of these areas and in most cases all 4.

So when a country A claims to "manufacture" a plane, we should see how good that country is in making at their own:

1. Avionics
2. air frame
3. engine
4. weapons + weapon delivery system.


CAC makes cheap imitations of Ruskie systems for the air-frame. Then they buy/smuggle Avionics, engines, weapon-delivery systems. Chinese can make crude versions of modern air-platform based weapons too.

Pakistan buys the air frame from China, then it is upto Pakistan to buy/smuggle Avionics, engines, weapon-delivery systems and weapons.

Some of these systems can be bought from Chines, sometimes we get lucky with European systems (like air-to-sea missiles), and sometimes we legally buy them from the USA (things like side winders, or tow for our gunships).

In essence Pakistan has the capability to take apart and assemble air plane kits. And that's what we do in PIA's boeing overhaul factory in Karachi too. Or in Kamra for the Chinese, US, and Euro made planes.


Still Pakistan is not fully capable of overhauling / upgrading our planes. Example: Turkish company is overhauling/upgrading all our old model F-16s.

So just keep the expectations realistic. Pakistan has not gone to aerospace age yet.

We can, but we ought to be humble, peaceful, and good students of real developed countries, just like Chinese are "very good students" of the USA / EU.

You gotta go and learn from the best (and not the ones who are students /trainees themselves).

SargeCandy

PAF is always humble in quoting its capabilities infact boasting is not PAF style at all,surprise on the other hand is its main weapon.

Coming to aircraft manufactirung,its not just 3/4 part that are required in designing and manufacturing an aircraft,there is cockpit,EW,ECM ,fuel system and what not,long list.The countries that develop own planes usually contract other firms to design and manufacture systems of the plane.Everything is not made under roof,just assembling.

CAC doesnt make cheap imitations of Russia,and the best example being J-7(F-7)(copy of russian Mig-21) which forms the backbone of PAF along with Mirage3/5.Compare that with Mig-21 of IAF,and the stats of crashes will tell the story itself.

Buying(/smuggling) avionics is same as contracting aviation firms(e.g. Dassault,Lockheed Martin,Boeing etc) which all the countries in the world do.so pakistan is doing what normally goes on around already.Sometimes the firms are hired maybe from other country,which is seen rarely in developed countries as they have own infrastructure present.In case of Pakistan,mostly Chinese companies and a few Pakistani firms are working on the JF-17.

Pakistan is fully capable of upgrading and over hauling the fighter aircrafts in PAF inventory,e.g.Mirage rebuild factory etc.In case of F-16,USA didnt allow a full TOT(tranfer of tech) to Pakistan as it did to Turkey so thats the reason F-16 will be MLU'ed by Turkey.

Bear in mind that the most difficult thing is making a powerplant,an engine.If the technology is present in the market,and is reliable,its picked up and used.Wheel doesnt need to be re-invented coz that will cost more to start from scratch.JF-17 will use RD-93 engine for first 50 aircraft and then WS-13 engine will be used for the later 2 batches.

Manufacturing of JF-17 in Pakistan is very laudable,because this is the first 4th gen aircraft being manufactured in Pakistan.India has had experience of this before with Jaguar.As JF-17 has been designed according to PAF specs,thus the need for upgradation will be there and that will be again be carried out in Pakistani facilities.so PAF is actually utilizing the time and resources in the best way it can to maximize the potential and performance of JF-17.

SargeCandy

The money spent on JF-17 project has been very well spent.There are other avenues in our country where money could have been spared to make a million schools.

SargeCandy

ur perception of russians is very wrong and so is ur perception of chinese weapons.i suggest u do a little more research before u come back and post. ur information about china is also wrong and usa doesnt supply kits to china neither does china have any US made weapons that were supplied directly to it except UH-60.Japan is also against development of china and the F-22 stationed in japan are to keep a check on china agianst an invasion on Taiwan.Please read facts and news and then post.

Russia showed problems with RD-93 engines under Indian pressure but gave in to Chinese pressure,where as India is in Russia's block.so ur wrong here also.

No country can straight away jump up by producing all parts especially when tech is getting sophisticated and also out sourcing saves time and money in most cases,then again u dont need to re-invent the wheel again.There was a time even China was delivered kits from Russia,it started its own production afterwards.

and ur again wrong in saying about japan and south korea,they only produce copied US designs.check their tanks and planes.

ikhlaq786

Nice