Mighty India or Mythical India ?

Aliph Ahmed · Sep 7th, 2009, 12:11 PM

This thread is an enlightenment for the boastful rants of Indians and all their news from the 'future-land; India will have that, India will have this.

Following is an interesting article written by an Indian. :laugh:

Top Article: Substandard Capabilities

Brahma Chellaney29 July 2009, 12:00am IST

In India, no technological advance is too small to be celebrated nationally. The launch of a nuclear-powered submarine for underwater trials is an

important step forward in India's quest for a minimal but credible nuclear deterrent. But India still has a long way to go. After all, it will be some years before India can deploy its first nuclear sub armed with sea-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs). Yet the mere flooding of the dry dock to begin the harbour trials of INS Arihant became an occasion for national jubilation, with the prime minister present at the event to hail it as "a historic milestone in the country's defence preparedness." It is as if India already has joined the club of nations with nuclear subs.

To be sure, nuclear-powered, ballistic missile-carrying submarines (known in US argot as SSBNs) can help India bridge the yawning gap in its deterrent capabilities against China. Moreover, only such subs can underpin India's no-first use (NFU) posture. For an NFU to be credible, the country needs a second-strike capability. If a country does not have the capability to retaliate after surviving an enemy's first strike on its nuclear assets, an NFU would make no sense. Nuclear-propelled subs, with their high endurance, serve as a stealthy, least-vulnerable and cost-effective launch pad for nuclear weapons. Deterrence can be achieved with less number of missiles at sea than if they are land-based.

Still, some harsh facts stick out. India has paid a tremendous international price for its nuclear programme without reaping the kind of security benefits it should have. And the gaps in its deterrent posture remain glaring. Indeed, among nuclear-armed states, India stands out as the country with the slowest rate of progress in deterrent development. Can it be forgotten that India's nuclear programme is the oldest in Asia and that its first nuclear test happened more than 35 years ago? Yet, India's 'credible minimal deterrent', far from being credible, has yet to deliver minimalist capabilities against China. India still does not have a single deployed missile of any type that can reach Beijing.

Let's face it: No country in history has struggled longer to build a minimal deterrent than India. There are multiple reasons for that, including the absence of a resolute political leadership, the country's accountability-at-a-discount culture, western technology sanctions, the non-existence of independent oversight or audit, creeping politicisation of top scientists and the bureaucratisation of strategic establishments. Also, unlike Britain, China, Israel and Pakistan, India received no assistance from another nuclear power and has had to develop everything indigenously while facing a rising tide of technology controls.

In the absence of a reliable nuclear deterrent, India remains irredeemably dependent on imports of conventional weapons, spending more than $5 billion annually on such purchases, some of questionable utility. Among important states, India is the only one that relies on imports to meet basic defence needs, to the extent that it has become the world's top arms buyer.

Yet that record has not stopped India from being boastful. The start of Arihant's underwater trials ought to have been a quiet affair, not a national event. After all, 11 years after a thermonuclear test, that technology is yet to be weaponised. Take another example. The Agni 3 is still to be deployed, yet the DRDO chief held a news conference earlier this year to brag about the likely first test next year of the Agni 5, which is still at the design stage. The press then went ga ga, portraying the Agni 5, with a maximum range of 5,000 km, as an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) when, in reality, it is just another Intermediate-range Ballistic Missile (IRBM) in India's agonisingly incremental missile-development path.

Which other country in the world advertises every technological move or brags about a missile still on the drawing board? To the contrary, the long-standing tradition in the nuclear world is to quietly develop and deploy capabilities. India is the lone exception to that tradition.

Instead of launching a crash ICBM project drawing on the intercontinental-range capabilities of the space programme, India remains stuck in the IRBM arena, where its frog-like paces have taken it two decades after the first Agni test to Agni-3, a non-strategic system. In fact, if everything goes well, India's first SSBN will be deployed with a non-strategic weapon a 700-km SLBM under development. That would further underpin the regional and stunted character of India's deterrent.

Of the three technologies nuclear propulsion, SLBM and ICBM the most complex are the first two. Developing a nuclear-weapon-strike capability from underwater is far more difficult than firing missiles from the ground. Yet, while seeking to develop an SLBM-armed nuclear sub, India still does not have an ICBM project, even on the drawing board. India wants to go down in world history as the first nation to deploy an SSBN without having developed an ICBM. 'Incredible India' indeed.

The writer is professor, Centre for Policy Research.
Top Article: Substandard Capabilities - Edit Page - OPINION - The Times of India

Punjabee in USA · Sep 14th, 2009, 04:44 PM

If India is celebrating its technological success, tumhari kyon jal rahi hai ? Thoda Burnol laga lo

Aliph Ahmed · Sep 14th, 2009, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Punjabee in USA

If India is celebrating its technological success, tumhari kyon jal rahi hai ? Thoda Burnol laga lo

What technological success?

Arleitter · Sep 15th, 2009, 12:07 AM

^To find out whether India is mighty or mythical,start a war and find out yourself.

Aliph Ahmed · Sep 15th, 2009, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arleitter

^To find out whether India is mighty or mythical,start a war and find out yourself.

Why bother when you and your scientists with degrees from Secret ISI universities are doing the job for us already. Hehe

and when the time comes, you will be handed your arses on a plate. Untill then enjoy the lala land.

Arleitter · Sep 15th, 2009, 12:32 AM

^All these you can claim and you have been claiming since 1947 but othing has worked out so far,except fo verbl gymnastics.

hhunaeh · Sep 15th, 2009, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliph Ahmed

Why bother when you and your scientists with degrees from Secret ISI universities are doing the job for us already. Hehe

and when the time comes, you will be handed your arses on a plate. Untill then enjoy the lala land.

ISI universities like IITs, IISCs and IIMs?? They are some of the best universities in the world. How many such universities does your country have? All you have is the LET / Taliban insititute of Terrorism.

Aliph Ahmed · Sep 15th, 2009, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hhunaeh

ISI universities like IITs, IISCs and IIMs?? They are some of the best universities in the world. How many such universities does your country have? All you have is the LET / Taliban insititute of Terrorism.

and your scientists hardly achieve success putting their knowledge into action.

All Pakistani military projects were not only started way after Indian programs but are 10 times ahead.

Indian Nuclear weopons Vs Pakistani nuclear weopons.
LCA Vs JF-17s.
Arjun Vs Al Khalid
Agni Vs Shaheen.
Prithvi Vs Ghauri.
Brahmos Vs Babur.
and the list goes onnnnn.

World class universities? Sure ! Unless your scientists passed by cheating, they havent shown any substance for their degrees. Hehehe

Punjabee in USA · Sep 15th, 2009, 12:49 PM

^ Yaar, when Pakistan is ahead of India in all fields then what is your problem ? Be happy with what you have instead of whining about what India does not have

And yes, let us know if you need our help developing technology for jamming FM radio signals. I am sure one of the students from our lowly technical universities would be able to help you

Aliph Ahmed · Sep 15th, 2009, 04:20 PM

IAF plane almost bombs Indira Gandhi Canal

Vimal Bhatia, TNN 16 September 2009, 12:30am IST

JAISALMER: In the third such instance this year, an Indian Air Force fighter plane managed to drop a bomb on Indian territory, this time miraculously missing the Indira Gandhi Canal that is a lifeline for millions in western Rajasthan.

A Mirage-2000 aircraft that took off from Gwalior on a routine exercise, mistimed an operation and dropped a 100-pound bomb 12 km from Mohangarh town in Jaisalmer district on Monday night. It was sheer chance that the bomb exploded some 100 feet from the Indira Gandhi Canal. Though the boundary of the canal was damaged, a large chunk of the canal could have breached had the projectile fallen a little closer, flooding nearby towns. A 100-pound bomb can cause damage to life and property up to 200 feet from the spot of explosion.

Confirming the incident, spokesman for the South-Western Air Command Group Captain Manoj Mehta said, "The aircraft had taken off from Gwalior as part of a routine exercise on Monday evening and was to drop the bomb at a target in Chandhan Range, 25 km away from the place where the bomb actually fell.'' The Pakistan border is 60 km from Mohangarh town. Two other small villages, Hasam Ki Dhani and Hameed Nada, are barely 1 km from the site of the explosion.

The bomb created a 25-feet-wide crater and over 80 trees were burnt. Dhanna Ram, a security guard at a nearby forest department outpost, claimed he was a witness. "I heard a loud explosion near 1404 RD (an identification marker) of the Indira Gandhi Main Canal around 10.30 pm. When I rushed out of the outpost building, I saw fire and two aircraft flying in the sky,'' said Dhanna Ram. On Tuesday morning, he mustered enough courage to visit the spot and then inform police.

Group Captain Mehta added that the bomb may have been released either due to a technical snag or there was delay in the release of the bomb by the pilot for some unknown reason. A four-member team headed by Wing Commander Ajay Kaul and Wing Commander Sudhir inspected the area on Tuesday morning. An inquiry has been ordered into the near-disaster.

IAF planes dropped bombs on Indian territory by mistake on February 7 and February 13. Both incidents were reported in Jaisalmer district. On February 7, a bomb fell on Kamode village and on February 13, one more crashed into Doshe Khan ki Dhani. There were no injuries but the February 13 bombing damaged crops and led to cracks in buildings.

Another eyewitness, Ragaram Vishnoi, also a security guard at the outpost, said he thought the explosion which shook the ground was an "act of God'', but later realised that the bomb could have been dropped by an aircraft.

Shrapnel from the bomb was scattered over an area of 200 metres. "It was sheer luck that the bomb did not hit the canal's boundary or the bridge which is situated just 100 feet away from the place where the bomb dropped. Mohangarh could have submerged in water if any such thing had happened,'' said Ragaram.
IAF plane almost bombs Indira Gandhi Canal - India - NEWS - The Times of India

Pathetic Indian Airforce doing the job for PAF. LMAO.

So much so for the "well trained IAF pilots" who cant even time the release of the plane right. Hehehe.

snowy_winter · Sep 15th, 2009, 06:38 PM

IITs seriously? never seen them in the top 200 universities in the world in any ranking, let alone top 100. Dream on.... in India, millions are born on footpaths, marry there, have kids there and die on footpaths..... yeah shining india right.

hhunaeh · Sep 15th, 2009, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliph Ahmed

and your scientists hardly achieve success putting their knowledge into action.

All Pakistani military projects were not only started way after Indian programs but are 10 times ahead.

Indian Nuclear weopons Vs Pakistani nuclear weopons.
LCA Vs JF-17s.
Arjun Vs Al Khalid
Agni Vs Shaheen.
Prithvi Vs Ghauri.
Brahmos Vs Babur.
and the list goes onnnnn.

World class universities? Sure ! Unless your scientists passed by cheating, they havent shown any substance for their degrees. Hehehe

Your technology is either Chinese or North Korean. And about scientists cheating, the last time i remember your chief nuclear scientist was called a thief by the world press

hhunaeh · Sep 15th, 2009, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowy_winter

IITs seriously? never seen them in the top 200 universities in the world in any ranking, let alone top 100. Dream on.... in India, millions are born on footpaths, marry there, have kids there and die on footpaths..... yeah shining india right.

I think you are being selectively blind. Almost all the rankings have IITs in the top 100 or 200.

snowy_winter · Sep 15th, 2009, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hhunaeh

Your technology is either Chinese or North Korean. And about scientists cheating, the last time i remember your chief nuclear scientist was called a thief by the world press

Yeah and indians came up with the N technology ALL by themselves..... comeon, everyone knows that Russia and Israel have been spoon feeding and spear heading the indian technology. Just because it is not publicized, doesn't mean that you should be jumping up and down with joy !!

snowy_winter · Sep 15th, 2009, 10:22 PM

I think the whole shining india is a hype created on the bubble of self-imagined power/advancement by indians. I mean, in their tourism ads they are always showing india as all exotic... remember the exotic indian women in sexy clothers they show to lure the goras ?? ....and try to portray as if india is the best thing that has ever happened.

In reality, the first thing tourists notice when they get off the plance is the strong stench of urine at all indian airports... way to go shining india.... google tourists feedback and you'll see for yourself.

Med911 · Sep 16th, 2009, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliph Ahmed

This thread is an enlightenment for the boastful rants of Indians and all their news from the 'future-land; India will have that, India will have this.

Following is an interesting article written by an Indian. :laugh:

Top Article: Substandard Capabilities

Brahma Chellaney29 July 2009, 12:00am IST

In India, no technological advance is too small to be celebrated nationally. The launch of a nuclear-powered submarine for underwater trials is an

important step forward in India's quest for a minimal but credible nuclear deterrent. But India still has a long way to go. After all, it will be some years before India can deploy its first nuclear sub armed with sea-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs). Yet the mere flooding of the dry dock to begin the harbour trials of INS Arihant became an occasion for national jubilation, with the prime minister present at the event to hail it as "a historic milestone in the country's defence preparedness." It is as if India already has joined the club of nations with nuclear subs.

To be sure, nuclear-powered, ballistic missile-carrying submarines (known in US argot as SSBNs) can help India bridge the yawning gap in its deterrent capabilities against China. Moreover, only such subs can underpin India's no-first use (NFU) posture. For an NFU to be credible, the country needs a second-strike capability. If a country does not have the capability to retaliate after surviving an enemy's first strike on its nuclear assets, an NFU would make no sense. Nuclear-propelled subs, with their high endurance, serve as a stealthy, least-vulnerable and cost-effective launch pad for nuclear weapons. Deterrence can be achieved with less number of missiles at sea than if they are land-based.

Still, some harsh facts stick out. India has paid a tremendous international price for its nuclear programme without reaping the kind of security benefits it should have. And the gaps in its deterrent posture remain glaring. Indeed, among nuclear-armed states, India stands out as the country with the slowest rate of progress in deterrent development. Can it be forgotten that India's nuclear programme is the oldest in Asia and that its first nuclear test happened more than 35 years ago? Yet, India's 'credible minimal deterrent', far from being credible, has yet to deliver minimalist capabilities against China. India still does not have a single deployed missile of any type that can reach Beijing.

Let's face it: No country in history has struggled longer to build a minimal deterrent than India. There are multiple reasons for that, including the absence of a resolute political leadership, the country's accountability-at-a-discount culture, western technology sanctions, the non-existence of independent oversight or audit, creeping politicisation of top scientists and the bureaucratisation of strategic establishments. Also, unlike Britain, China, Israel and Pakistan, India received no assistance from another nuclear power and has had to develop everything indigenously while facing a rising tide of technology controls.

In the absence of a reliable nuclear deterrent, India remains irredeemably dependent on imports of conventional weapons, spending more than $5 billion annually on such purchases, some of questionable utility. Among important states, India is the only one that relies on imports to meet basic defence needs, to the extent that it has become the world's top arms buyer.

Yet that record has not stopped India from being boastful. The start of Arihant's underwater trials ought to have been a quiet affair, not a national event. After all, 11 years after a thermonuclear test, that technology is yet to be weaponised. Take another example. The Agni 3 is still to be deployed, yet the DRDO chief held a news conference earlier this year to brag about the likely first test next year of the Agni 5, which is still at the design stage. The press then went ga ga, portraying the Agni 5, with a maximum range of 5,000 km, as an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) when, in reality, it is just another Intermediate-range Ballistic Missile (IRBM) in India's agonisingly incremental missile-development path.

Which other country in the world advertises every technological move or brags about a missile still on the drawing board? To the contrary, the long-standing tradition in the nuclear world is to quietly develop and deploy capabilities. India is the lone exception to that tradition.

Instead of launching a crash ICBM project drawing on the intercontinental-range capabilities of the space programme, India remains stuck in the IRBM arena, where its frog-like paces have taken it two decades after the first Agni test to Agni-3, a non-strategic system. In fact, if everything goes well, India's first SSBN will be deployed with a non-strategic weapon a 700-km SLBM under development. That would further underpin the regional and stunted character of India's deterrent.

Of the three technologies nuclear propulsion, SLBM and ICBM the most complex are the first two. Developing a nuclear-weapon-strike capability from underwater is far more difficult than firing missiles from the ground. Yet, while seeking to develop an SLBM-armed nuclear sub, India still does not have an ICBM project, even on the drawing board. India wants to go down in world history as the first nation to deploy an SSBN without having developed an ICBM. 'Incredible India' indeed.

The writer is professor, Centre for Policy Research.
Top Article: Substandard Capabilities - Edit Page - OPINION - The Times of India

We all knew this... Indians cover up a lot of things for the sake of mass delusion.
I heard that for the Common wealth games, the Indians are rounding up all the beggers and hiding the ghettos with bamboo...

See no evil hear no evil...

Punjabee in USA · Sep 16th, 2009, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowy_winter

IITs seriously? never seen them in the top 200 universities in the world in any ranking, let alone top 100...

IITs ranked number three in the world - Rest of World - World - NEWS - The Times of India

Now STFU !!

snowy_winter · Sep 16th, 2009, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Punjabee in USA

IITs ranked number three in the world - Rest of World - World - NEWS - The Times of India

Now STFU !!

Wow, what a cerdible source the newspaper...."The Daily Lies of India".

How about a credible source like the QS: Not a single indian university in the top 100. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if you offered your exotic indian "charms" to the gora who came for ranking in order to get in the table mentioned by the Daily Lies of India.
QS Top Universities: Top 200 universities in the THE - QS World University Rankings 2008

Now you STFU and move your bum from a pakistani forum.

Punjabee in USA · Sep 16th, 2009, 11:00 AM

^ Did you even look at the entire list ? IIT Delhi is # 157 in the QS list. So much for your rant about "not a single Indian university in the top 200"

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowy_winter

IITs seriously? never seen them in the top 200 universities in the world in any ranking, let alone top 100. Dream on.... in India, millions are born on footpaths, marry there, have kids there and die on footpaths..... yeah shining india right.

How about you finally STFU now ?

snowy_winter · Sep 16th, 2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Punjabee in USA

^ Did you even look at the entire list ? IIT Delhi is # 157 in the QS list. So much for your rant about "not a single Indian university in the top 200"

How about you finally STFU now ?

I repeat THERE IS NOT A SINGLE INDIAN UNIVERSITY in the top 100. So what if theres a stinking uni at 157, it doesn't matter. Its the top 100 that matters.

And what about the urine stench and the millions spending their lives on footpaths ?

Do you sometimes get nostalgia, for that urine stench entering your nostrils when you get off the plane back home?