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    1. #1
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      Learning from the Conquest of the Indian Subcontinent


      Whenever the history of the Indian Subcontinent is discussed, it is hard not to mention Muhammad bin Qasim who destroyed the Sindi forces in order to spread the Islamic rule in that region. However, many forget to mention why the Khalifah sent him and whether the mission was unique or one that was being repeated across the globe. This article will paint the bigger picture of Islamic history in the Indian Subcontinent.

      These events should not be taken as mere historical facts nor should we look in awe at our past leaders and Generals and feel that what they achieved is for us something unachievable. It is merely to learn from our history in order that we may compare it to the current status quo and apply the lessons learnt. This article will in brief illustrate how Islam entered the Indian subcontinent but will additionally try to clarify the reasons for the conquests.

      Events leading to the conquest of Sind
      Efforts to capture the region began at the time of Khalifah Umar bin al-Khattab (ra). The Wali (governor) of Iraq embarked on an expedition by land to Makran. Makran was conquered but the triumph was short lived. During the last days of Khalifah Umar's rule in 642 CE, Makran was re-conquered and remained under Islamic rule. Hakim bin Jabal (ra) was sent to Sind by Khalifah Uthman (ra) in 650 CE to collect information. Prior to him, Sahar al-Abdi (ra) had visited Sind for the same purpose in 643 CE during Khalifah Umar bin al-Khattab’s (ra) rule.

      The first naval mission undertaken by the Islamic army in the Indian Ocean was during the rule of Khalifah Umar bin al-Khattab (ra) in 636 CE under the command of Osman bin Abi Aas (ra), the Wali of Bahrain and Oman. The army attacked Thana, a port near modern Bombay. Shortly after, he sent another naval voyage to Debal in Sind lead by his brother, Mughira (ra). At that time Raja Chach was the ruler of Sind and his kingdom was well defended.

      Though many attempts were made to capture Sind, the real story of the conquest of Sind and the rest of the region began from the time of Khalifah Walid bin Abdul Malik, during the Umayyad period. It was in the year 711 AH that Spain was conquered by the Islamic State and Sind was captured by the Muslims. A number of reasons can be put forward for the reasons behind the foreign policy of the Islamic State towards Sind.

      Firstly, Sindi Rajas played a major role in supporting the Persians in their battles against the Islamic forces. The Sindi military participated in the battles of Nehawand, Salasal, Qadisia and Makran against the Khilafah. Secondly, after the Muslims had taken Persia, some of their rebel chiefs began to seek refuge in Sind. The Raja refused to hand them over to the Khalifah, despite frequent requests. Thirdly, pirates from the Makran and Sind coasts continuously besieged Muslim traders. A grip of these parts was therefore considered necessary to safeguard Muslim maritime interests.

      The actual conquest began after Muslim merchants returned from Ceylon to Basra having been ransacked by Sindi pirates. It is said that the pirates abducted some of the Muslim women away, and so the merchants called for the help of Hajjaj bin Yusuf, who was a Wali (governor), to come and rescue the women.

      When Hajjaj became aware of the incident he took action and wrote to Dahir, the ruler of Sind, to free the captives and return the goods that were seized. Not receiving a sympathetic reply, Hajjaj, with the permission of Khalifah Walid, sent a force to Debal. Dahir’s army annihilated this force and its commander. For the second time, Hajjaj sent a force to the area; this force being bigger than the last, and Dahir responded likewise. For the second time Muslims were defeated and their commander Badil bin Tuhfa was killed fighting at Debal.

      Hajjaj was furious at the two defeats, but the Muslims were reminded by the words of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (saw):

      “I feel a cool breeze (refreshment) from al Hind (Muslims of India)” [Abu Dawood].

      Abu Hurairah said:

      “The Messenger (saw) promised us the conquest of India. If I was to come across that, I will spend my soul and my wealth. If I am killed then I am among the best of martyrs, and if I return then I am Abu Hurairah the freed” [Ahmad, An-Nisa'i, Al-Hakim].

      Realising that the Raja of Sind was powerful, well acquainted with warfare tactics, well equipped and well trained, Hajjaj issued large-scale plans, determined to take Islam to Sind and put an end to Kufr rule.

      Hajjaj chose a 17-year-old, Muhammad bin Qasim to lead the contingent for the dangerous mission. Commander Muhammad bin Qasim and his army were given rigorous training for over one year in the desert of southern Iran, which had climatic conditions comparable to that of Sind. Intelligence reports were gathered, strong and weak points of the enemy were pinpointed and facts concerning their weapons and defences were assembled, studied, and the Islamic army equipped in view of that.

      Hajjaj bin Yusuf went through precise details and after painstaking study of the maps of Sind he guided Muhammad bin Qasim on the mission and strategy that had been adopted. Not satisfied with this, Hajjaj took measures to arrange to convey his messages and orders to Muhammad bin Qasim from Basra to any point in Sind within a week. Muhammad bin Qasim was ordered not to attack any city, fort or engage his forces in any significant battle without receiving instructions from Basra. Precise planning was undertaken by Hajjaj, to the extent that directives regarding the day and time of assault and arsenal to be used in a specific place were sent by Hajjaj.

      At the same time the Buddhists of Sind began to seek information from their fellow believers in Afghanistan and Turkistan about their affairs as they were living within the Khilafah. Upon hearing that they were treated equal to the Muslim and that their rights and religion had been protected, the Sindi Buddhists provided full cooperation to Muhammad bin Qasim, and honoured him with the title ‘liberator from the Brahmin tyranny’. Buddhist rulers from Sind, such as Nerun of Hyderabad held secret correspondence with the young General. In the same way, Bajhra and KakaKolak, Buddhist Rajas of Sewastan, allied themselves with Muhammad bin Qasim. On similar justification, Jats also joined the Muslims against Dahir.

      The expedition went as far north as Multan but failed to retain that region and found no success in expanding the Islamic rule to other parts of India. The Muslims however established themselves in the region they took. The presence of Muslims in Sind encouraged coastal trade, allowed significant cultural interactions and enabled the Ulema and the da’wa carriers to enter the subcontinent; conversions into the Islamic belief was a natural consequence, and this increased the influence of the Muslims.

      Almost three centuries later, Turkish and Afghani Muslims were in the forefront of the Islamic conquest in India through the long-established invasion routes of the northwest. Towards the end of the twelfth century, Muhammad of Ghor invaded the Indo-Gangetic Plain, conquering in succession Ghazni, Multan, Sind, Lahore, and Delhi. His successors established the Delhi Sultanate, which became the Islamic capital of the Indian Subcontinent. The territory under control of the Muslim rulers

      in Delhi expanded swiftly. By mid-century, Bengal and much of central India was under the rule of the Delhi Sultanate. As Muslims opened southern India, only the Hindu kingdom of Vijayanagar remained immune, until it too fell in 1565 CE. Although some regions remained independent of Delhi in the Deccan and in Gujarat, Malwa (central India) and Bengal, almost all of the area in present day Pakistan came under the rule of Delhi.

      Thawban reported that the Messenger of Allah (saw) said:

      “Two groups of my Ummah Allah has protected from the Hellfire: a group that will conquer India and a group that will be with Isa ibnu Maryam” [Ahmad and An-Nisa'i].

      Most of the rulers in the subcontinent associated their rule with the Khilafah, the Shari’ah was the state law and the Qadi’s were Muslim judges. Reference to the Qur’an and Sunnah were made via the Ulema, even though in later years the Indian subcontinent saw a decline, faced its share of problems and became almost autonomous. However, the entire coinage bore the Khalifah’s name and his name was mentioned in Jumu’a Khutbahs throughout India. The large distance of India from the centre of the Khilafah caused many problems particularly in regards to communication. This was one of the reasons attributed to the local governors eventually becoming almost absolute rulers. For instance, when the Mongols crushed Baghdad and killed the Khalifah, the sultanate of Delhi used the name of the murdered Khalifah on its coinage and in the Jumu’a Khutbahs for 30 years after he had been killed. They attributed their rule to the Khilafah, and ruled with the book of Allah (swt) and the Sunnah of Muhammad (saw).

      Lessons from the Conquest of the Indian Subcontinent
      1. Muhammad bin Qasim – An Islamic personality produced by the Islamic ideology.

      In today’s day and age youth can see their aim in life as the acquisition of worldly comforts rather than anything else. Such is the case when Capitalism provides the aim in life.

      It is natural for the Islamic ideology, when in implementation, to produce personalities like Muhammad bin Qasim. May Allah (swt) bless Muhammad bin Qasim, and all those who fell in the cause of Islam. At the tender age of 17 he led the army of jihad, battle after battle, with the sole aim of spreading Islam. He was not just a warrior but also a strategist.

      Muhammad bin Qasim was not a unique personality but one of many that the Islamic system produced. Tariq bin Ziyad was another youth who conquered Spain in the same year. With the return of the Khilafah in the future we will, Inshallah, see more personalities like that of Muhammad bin Qasim and Tariq bin Ziyad.

      2. The Conquest of the Subcontinent – Part of the Foreign Policy of Islam

      Muhammad bin Qasim was a General like many others. He was sent on a military mission like many others. He fought against the Kuffar whilst holding the banner of Islam, as did previous Generals and the ones who followed him. The war against the Rajas of India was Jihad, which was administered by the Islamic State since the time of Muhammad (saw), our beloved Prophet. Hence, the confrontation against the Hindus of India was part of the consistent foreign policy of the Khilafah and not an ad-hoc reactionary policy formed by an overwhelming emotion. Therefore, it is important to note that it was the Islamic State with all its departments and structure that allowed Islam to enter the households of Sind, Kashmir, Bengal and so on, and not just one personality. Any Muslim government today cannot enact such a foreign policy because all of them lack the necessary Islamic foundation, structure, departments and Islamic motivation.

      3. Islam looked after the affairs of the Muslims

      The move to launch a campaign against the Indians at that particular time was also linked to looking after the affairs of the Muslims and the State. The Hindu Rajas were the people who supported the Persian enemies. The rebel chiefs from Persia fled to Sind and took protection under the wings of the Sindi Raja who refused to hand them over. Furthermore, pirates in the vicinity constantly ransacked Muslim traders. However, the last straw was the call of the Muslim women who begged for the help of the Wali, when pirates from the area abducted them. His response was not to send a diplomatic team but rather to send a sortie of forces to resolve the problem. Eventually these problems were replaced with Islamic solutions. This is the nature of the Islamic leadership, as the Prophet Muhammad (saw) described.

      Muslim narrated on the authority of al-A’araj, on the authority of Abu Hurairah (ra), that the Prophet (saw) said:

      “Behold, the Imam is but a shield from behind whom the people fight and by whom they protect themselves.”

      Today we hear the daily calls of our mothers begging for the help of the Muslims of the world. But without the Islamic State, not one military force has been sent to protect them, even though Pakistan possesses nuclear weapons and the like.

      4. Unity

      Islam spreads like fire in a forest. The Islamic rule was spread across the globe. Walis who were acquainted with ruling were sent to establish Islamic rule and judges were sent to establish justice, Ulema were sent to teach Islam, linguists and interpreters sent to teach Arabic. Jizya was collected from the dhimmis (non-Muslim citizens of the Islamic State) who were Hindus, Buddhists and others. Zakah was collected from the Muslims and a battalion was formed from the area to protect the conquered land and to spread Islam to the neighbouring lands.

      Sind was not a conquered land to serve the wants of their masters. Sind became part of the Islamic State and not a separate slavish entity, as was the case in the days of the British colonialists. Sind was open to the Muslims of Arabia, Persia or Spain without a passport or special permission as it was Muslim land equal to all others. A sense of unity was in the atmosphere of the subcontinent. Buddhists and Hindus alike embraced Islam with willing submission and the dhimmis lived side by side with the Muslims. Even though the Hindus were a majority in the subcontinent, the Shari’ah was the state law and the rulers were Muslims for centuries.

      5. The Allegiance of non-believers to the Khilafah

      The Buddhists of Sind quickly rose to fight alongside the Muslims, not because they thought that they would share power and authority with the Muslims, but because they wished to live under the Khilafah, knowing full well that they would not be treated as slaves or second-class citizens. They saw the justice that Islam provided and were willing to risk their lives for it. Such a scenario is not unique in our history; indeed many disbelievers have fought for the protection of the Islamic State. One such example is that of the Christians of the Islamic state who fought against the Christian Crusaders.

      Conclusion
      Islam entered the Indian subcontinent led by great personalities like General Muhammad bin Qasim through Jihad. It was the Khilafah that supplied believers who were willing to give up their lives for the Islamic cause. However, with the fall of the Khilafah, we have only seen the British, the Hindus, the Pakistani premiers, and more recently the Americans take advantage of the situation. Our mosques have been burnt, our homes looted, our women dishonoured and our youth slaughtered. A handful of Muslims fight for Kashmir whilst the multitudes of Muslim armies watch the show and the rulers turn their backs.

      Islam provided the Muslims of the Indian Subcontinent with true security and justice such that in the aftermath of the fall of the Khilafah the Muslims of India established groups such as the Khilafah Movement in order to revive the Khilafah and masses of people migrated to Pakistan in hope of an Islamic State.

      All praise is to Allah (swt), that the Muslims of the Indian Subcontinent are awakening from their deep sleep. They are aware of their past and of the future foretold in the Qur’an and the Sunnah. What is required now is for us to remember Allah’s (swt) promise to the believers and to work rigorously for the impending victory.

      Allah (swt) informs us in Surah an-Nur:

      “Allah has promised to those among you who do righteous deeds, that He will of surety grant them in the land inheritance of power, as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion, the one which He has chosen for them; and that He will change this state after the fear in which they live to one of security and peace: They will worship Me alone and not associate partners with Me” [TMQ An-Nur: 55].

      Abid Saied
      http://www.khilafah.com/1421/categor...=2254&TagID=24

    2. #2
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      How did this end up in Kashmir section????

    3. #3
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      Originally posted by Abdali:
      How did this end up in Kashmir section????
      cuz, as u know hizb-ul-tahir does not believe in geographical boundaries. all nations and teritories are same and problems all the way from kashmir to chickenpox will be solved if u guys have mulla omar as khalipha of all muslim majority states.
      coming to his post, i have seen this pakistani version of history many times. but how do pakistanis treat with people coming from west and invading the muslim sultanates in india like nadir shah giving a blow to mughal empire. in fact the new armies from central asian states kept coming even when the rulers in india were already muslim. what is hizb-ul-tahir interpretation.

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      Originally posted by ZZ:
      Originally posted by Abdali:
      How did this end up in Kashmir section????
      in fact the new armies from central asian states kept coming even when the rulers in india were already muslim. what is hizb-ul-tahir interpretation.

      That is the reason of the fall of once mighty islmic empire that shone from Spian to India.

    5. #5
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      Many people have different interpretations on history, but my question is what is the only interpretation from Islam about the future and the NOW!. The current situation the Muslims are in what is the solution from Islam and what is the only interpretation on this?

    6. #6
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      Originally posted by Abdali:

      That is the reason of the fall of once mighty islmic empire that shone from Spian to India.
      But the reasons why invaders kept coming from west even when india had muslim rulers can not be religious. it had to do with the fact that central asia and middle east were deserts and in that inhospitable terrain, best way to go to east and green plains of ganges and sind as a refuggee or trader or better fighter.

      history has interpretations other than religious and military conquesta are often for economic reasons. that is perhaps the reason why ruler of delhi, had to face armies from west and being muslim did not save him from invasion. only exception going other way round was maharaja ranjit singh.


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      Originally posted by ZZ:
      But the reasons why invaders kept coming from west even when india had muslim rulers can not be religious. it had to do with the fact that central asia and middle east were deserts and in that inhospitable terrain, best way to go to east and green plains of ganges and sind as a refuggee or trader or better fighter.

      history has interpretations other than religious and military conquesta are often for economic reasons. that is perhaps the reason why ruler of delhi, had to face armies from west and being muslim did not save him from invasion. only exception going other way round was maharaja ranjit singh.

      Expansion is human nature every mighty civilization has done that. It cannot be greener pastures all Islamic invaders were looking for bcz Arabia, Damascus and Babylon were center of art, literature and science and were quite wealthy. But Islamic empire still expanded all the way to Europe, Spain and Southern France and this is at a time when Europe was dirt poor, uncivilized, plunged in darkness, illiterate and burning witches.
      It was the Islamic civilization that turned Europe around.

      So all invaders did not had similar motives but yes in case of India it was hunger for power that brought one invasion after the other and bickering was one of the key reason(s) that caused the decline of Mughal empire and gave rise to a brief Sikh rule until the Brits finally wrestled power form the Muslims.

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      Originally posted by muhammed kauser:
      Many people have different interpretations on history, but my question is what is the only interpretation from Islam about the future and the NOW!. The current situation the Muslims are in what is the solution from Islam and what is the only interpretation on this?

      With so many versions of Islam it will be virtually impossible….. Past glory was due to the fact there was one islam for all.

    9. #9
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      Originally posted by Abdali:
      It cannot be greener pastures all Islamic invaders were looking for bcz Arabia, Damascus and Babylon were center of art, literature and science and were quite wealthy. .
      other way round, first empires expanded, then wealth comes and when u have wealth and free time, comes culture. otherwise what natural resources are there in those areas except recently found oil.

      exodus continues from afghanistan till date. now as refugees. baluchistan is only place in pakistan (which is largest province and still has least no. of people) where population has actually declined. these areas are simly incapable of holding large populations and they have to migrate, sometimes invade.

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      Originally posted by ZZ:
      other way round, first empires expanded, then wealth comes and when u have wealth and free time, comes culture. otherwise what natural resources are there in those areas except recently found oil.

      exodus continues from afghanistan till date. now as refugees. baluchistan is only place in pakistan (which is largest province and still has least no. of people) where population has actually declined. these areas are simly incapable of holding large populations and they have to migrate, sometimes invade.

      Wealth is created please refer to my earlier European example. Islamic civilization expanded its empire into territories known to be poor and backwards and created wealth.
      Your earlier notion that invasions were due to wealth alone are partly true and do not apply to all invasions.


    11. #11
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      Listen to this....

      another point of view in the light of same Ahadeeth with rhe references from Al-Quran....
      http://www.tanzeemeislami.org/radio/conference/02.ra

      Have faith....

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    12. #12
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      Originally posted by Abdali:

      Wealth is created please refer to my earlier European example. Islamic civilization expanded its empire into territories known to be poor and backwards and created wealth.
      Your earlier notion that invasions were due to wealth alone are partly true and do not apply to all invasions.

      let us talk military conquests. there is no homogeneous 'islamic civilization'. u mean indonesian and persian and saudis have same civilization?

      Religions can/do spread without military conquests. India did not send armies to china or japan or lanka or combodia or indonesia to spread buddhism or hinduism. so if something has intrinsic inellectual merit, it need not violence.

      semitic religions like islam and christianity have often resorted to violence since they did not have much intellectual merit.

      one of the major foundation of western civilization, greeko-roman though based on logic and ratonalism is prior to they became christian. similarly iran and igypt had glorious days before advent of islam.

      for a while, when empire was at peak, at the crossroads of india and greece, arab traders got some middleman's credit by translating books from here and there. but old tribaltendencies came up, libraries were destroyed and this quest of knowledge was very short lived.

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      let us talk military conquests. there is no homogeneous 'islamic civilization'. u mean indonesian and persian and saudis have same civilization?
      *******

      That is not the point, BUT if you look from Islamic point of view it is. That’s what Islamic brotherhood is, no borders and all are equal.

      Religions can/do spread without military conquests. India did not send armies to china or japan or lanka or combodia or indonesia to spread buddhism or hinduism. so if something has intrinsic inellectual merit, it need not violence. semitic religions like islam and christianity have often resorted to violence since they did not have much intellectual merit.
      *******

      That is from your history books and a very distorted history too. Only in your history books its taught Islam is violent and it spread in India at the point of sword. Care to explain how come European history is so different. And further only India is a Hindu country. You will find large minority of Hindus in countries like Indonesia, Fiji etc… not because of conversion but migration. Genocide of Buddhist at the hands of the Hindu Brahmins was one of the reasons why Buddhist are found in neighboring countries. Please read Dr. B.R Ambedkar books for more details.

      one of the major foundation of western civilization, greeko-roman though based on logic and ratonalism is prior to they became christian. similarly iran and igypt had glorious days before advent of islam.
      *******

      Who is questioning the background and the rise and fall of empires they go hand in hand. The point is when Europe was illiterate and poor Islamic civilization was the one that brought light of knowledge and power. Your contention all invasions were due to greed and power are incorrect.

      for a while, when empire was at peak, at the crossroads of india and greece, arab traders got some middleman's credit by translating books from here and there. but old tribaltendencies came up, libraries were destroyed and this quest of knowledge was very short lived.
      *******

      You need a crash course in history (none Indian that is) Please find some books on Islamic research and inventions. Please read history by Gustav Lebon "For five to six hundred years general books in Arabic language and particularly on various disciplines have been almost the only source of learning and teaching in the European universities. Read European history by Stanley Lane-Poole also read Islamic mathematics by Richard Lorch.. Making wild claims that Arabs did translations only and were not innovators and inventors is absurd. There are volumes on Islamic science inventions and innovations. I can provide tons of Muslim names and their inventions and their contribution towards science in all fields but I don’t have the time for ppl who live in their own little world.
      P.S. Perhaps guppies can provide you a list and history.
      One more time please do some research on islamic history (and please please no Indian history crap). Libraries, schools, universities, religious institutions were destroyed by Christian invaders not islam. Here is a quote from Tore Kjeilen the author of a Norwegian magzine with Masters in history.

      While the illiterate Christians were advancing, Spain reached its highest cultural level ever, but under the Muslim rulers. The slender structure of Alhambra, the breathtaking details, the celebration of life, the mixture of nature in men's design, all underline what tragedy the return of Christianity in Spain was to be for centuries to come. More than one million volumes of Muslim works on science, arts, philosophy and culture was burnt in the public square of Vivarrambla in Granada. Just to let you know the fall of Granada was the fall of a mighty civilization.


      [This message has been edited by Abdali (edited September 30, 2001).]

    14. #14
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      [QUOTE]Originally posted by Abdali:
      let us talk military conquests. there is no homogeneous 'islamic civilization'. u mean indonesian and persian and saudis have same civilization?
      *******

      That is not the point, BUT if you look from Islamic point of view it is. That’s what Islamic brotherhood is, no borders and all are equal.


      I know about Islamic point of view. But I would rather look at things from realistic point of view.

      Religions can/do spread without military conquests. India did not send armies to china or japan or lanka or combodia or indonesia to spread buddhism or hinduism. so if something has intrinsic inellectual merit, it need not violence. semitic religions like islam and christianity have often resorted to violence since they did not have much intellectual merit.
      *******

      That is from your history books and a very distorted history too. Only in your history books its taught Islam is violent and it spread in India at the point of sword. Care to explain how come European history is so different. And further only India is a Hindu country. You will find large minority of Hindus in countries like Indonesia, Fiji etc… not because of conversion but migration. Genocide of Buddhist at the hands of the Hindu Brahmins was one of the reasons why Buddhist are found in neighboring countries. Please read Dr. B.R Ambedkar books for more details.


      I have read Ambedkar. I am sure that you havent except from hate websites. Read 'Buddha and his Dhamma' and read what he talks of Islam. In fact, a part of book had to be deleted due to protests from Muslim faundamentalists. Read his explanation of why he did not embrace Islam.

      You havent explained how buddhism could spread to entire southeast asia without military conquests while Islam didnt.

      No! My textbooks do not tell me the bloody history of Islam. They should. But they dont. However, westerners have written proper history and ancient temples in india with broken idols are testimony to history.

      You mean hinduism in Combodia and Indonesia was due to migrants?? Upto 12th century cambodians were hindus, now buddhists. There are ancient temples. That is a new dose of history. It is long before that sumatra and java had hindu and buddhist kingdoms. They changed to Islam later. I did not mention Fiji in my examples. Fiji is due to migrants. But how did hinduism go to cambodia and java-sumatra islands? definitely, there were no invasions.

      one of the major foundation of western civilization, greeko-roman though based on logic and ratonalism is prior to they became christian. similarly iran and igypt had glorious days before advent of islam.
      *******

      Who is questioning the background and the rise and fall of empires they go hand in hand. The point is when Europe was illiterate and poor Islamic civilization was the one that brought light of knowledge and power. Your contention all invasions were due to greed and power are incorrect.


      Greeko-roman civilization is basis of modern western science and thought and they came long before islam.


      for a while, when empire was at peak, at the crossroads of india and greece, arab traders got some middleman's credit by translating books from here and there. but old tribaltendencies came up, libraries were destroyed and this quest of knowledge was very short lived.
      *******

      You need a crash course in history (none Indian that is) Please find some books on Islamic research and inventions. Please read history by Gustav Lebon "For five to six hundred years general books in Arabic language and particularly on various disciplines have been almost the only source of learning and teaching in the European universities. Read European history by Stanley Lane-Poole also read Islamic mathematics by Richard Lorch.. Making wild claims that Arabs did translations only and were not innovators and inventors is absurd. There are volumes on Islamic science inventions and innovations. I can provide tons of Muslim names and their inventions and their contribution towards science in all fields but I don’t have the time for ppl who live in their own little world.
      P.S. Perhaps guppies can provide you a list and history.
      One more time please do some research on islamic history (and please please no Indian history crap). Libraries, schools, universities, religious institutions were destroyed by Christian invaders not islam. Here is a quote from Tore Kjeilen the author of a Norwegian magzine with Masters in history.

      While the illiterate Christians were advancing, Spain reached its highest cultural level ever, but under the Muslim rulers. The slender structure of Alhambra, the breathtaking details, the celebration of life, the mixture of nature in men's design, all underline what tragedy the return of Christianity in Spain was to be for centuries to come. More than one million volumes of Muslim works on science, arts, philosophy and culture was burnt in the public square of Vivarrambla in Granada.
      ust to let you know the fall of Granada was the fall of a mighty civilization.


      Please dont quote and re-quote the same crap. A few guys tried to do some science at the peak of islamic empire. Does not mean they did on own. Have u ever wondered why Arabic numerals are called 'Hindsa' in Arabic?

      Coming back to the topic, invaders came to India because of fertile land and money. Invaders all the way have looted tons of gold from this country. Ancient accounts tell that in trade between ancient greece and ancient india, india had a surplus. It was major source of many items. Looters indeed came there. Even mughals, u talk about came by invading and defeating muslim kingdoms on the way. Why? Why should u defeat muslim kingdoms if islam is ur goal. It wasnt. Looting money was the goal and they succeeded.


    15. #15
      Senior Member
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      [quote]Originally posted by ZZ:
      Originally posted by Abdali:
      let us talk military conquests. there is no homogeneous 'islamic civilization'. u mean indonesian and persian and saudis have same civilization?
      *******

      That is not the point, BUT if you look from Islamic point of view it is. That’s what Islamic brotherhood is, no borders and all are equal.


      I know about Islamic point of view. But I would rather look at things from realistic point of view.

      Religions can/do spread without military conquests. India did not send armies to china or japan or lanka or combodia or indonesia to spread buddhism or hinduism. so if something has intrinsic inellectual merit, it need not violence. semitic religions like islam and christianity have often resorted to violence since they did not have much intellectual merit.
      *******

      That is from your history books and a very distorted history too. Only in your history books its taught Islam is violent and it spread in India at the point of sword. Care to explain how come European history is so different. And further only India is a Hindu country. You will find large minority of Hindus in countries like Indonesia, Fiji etc… not because of conversion but migration. Genocide of Buddhist at the hands of the Hindu Brahmins was one of the reasons why Buddhist are found in neighboring countries. Please read Dr. B.R Ambedkar books for more details.


      I have read Ambedkar. I am sure that you havent except from hate websites. Read 'Buddha and his Dhamma' and read what he talks of Islam. In fact, a part of book had to be deleted due to protests from Muslim faundamentalists. Read his explanation of why he did not embrace Islam.

      You havent explained how buddhism could spread to entire southeast asia without military conquests while Islam didnt.

      No! My textbooks do not tell me the bloody history of Islam. They should. But they dont. However, westerners have written proper history and ancient temples in india with broken idols are testimony to history.

      You mean hinduism in Combodia and Indonesia was due to migrants?? Upto 12th century cambodians were hindus, now buddhists. There are ancient temples. That is a new dose of history. It is long before that sumatra and java had hindu and buddhist kingdoms. They changed to Islam later. I did not mention Fiji in my examples. Fiji is due to migrants. But how did hinduism go to cambodia and java-sumatra islands? definitely, there were no invasions.

      one of the major foundation of western civilization, greeko-roman though based on logic and ratonalism is prior to they became christian. similarly iran and igypt had glorious days before advent of islam.
      *******

      Who is questioning the background and the rise and fall of empires they go hand in hand. The point is when Europe was illiterate and poor Islamic civilization was the one that brought light of knowledge and power. Your contention all invasions were due to greed and power are incorrect.


      Greeko-roman civilization is basis of modern western science and thought and they came long before islam.


      for a while, when empire was at peak, at the crossroads of india and greece, arab traders got some middleman's credit by translating books from here and there. but old tribaltendencies came up, libraries were destroyed and this quest of knowledge was very short lived.
      *******

      You need a crash course in history (none Indian that is) Please find some books on Islamic research and inventions. Please read history by Gustav Lebon "For five to six hundred years general books in Arabic language and particularly on various disciplines have been almost the only source of learning and teaching in the European universities. Read European history by Stanley Lane-Poole also read Islamic mathematics by Richard Lorch.. Making wild claims that Arabs did translations only and were not innovators and inventors is absurd. There are volumes on Islamic science inventions and innovations. I can provide tons of Muslim names and their inventions and their contribution towards science in all fields but I don’t have the time for ppl who live in their own little world.
      P.S. Perhaps guppies can provide you a list and history.
      One more time please do some research on islamic history (and please please no Indian history crap). Libraries, schools, universities, religious institutions were destroyed by Christian invaders not islam. Here is a quote from Tore Kjeilen the author of a Norwegian magzine with Masters in history.

      While the illiterate Christians were advancing, Spain reached its highest cultural level ever, but under the Muslim rulers. The slender structure of Alhambra, the breathtaking details, the celebration of life, the mixture of nature in men's design, all underline what tragedy the return of Christianity in Spain was to be for centuries to come. More than one million volumes of Muslim works on science, arts, philosophy and culture was burnt in the public square of Vivarrambla in Granada.
      ust to let you know the fall of Granada was the fall of a mighty civilization.


      Please dont quote and re-quote the same crap. A few guys tried to do some science at the peak of islamic empire. Does not mean they did on own. Have u ever wondered why Arabic numerals are called 'Hindsa' in Arabic?

      Coming back to the topic, invaders came to India because of fertile land and money. Invaders all the way have looted tons of gold from this country. Ancient accounts tell that in trade between ancient greece and ancient india, india had a surplus. It was major source of many items. Looters indeed came there. Even mughals, u talk about came by invading and defeating muslim kingdoms on the way. Why? Why should u defeat muslim kingdoms if islam is ur goal. It wasnt. Looting money was the goal and they succeeded.

      I don't blame you its Indian schools. Do some research on Islamic science & culture and then we will talk. Perhapes ask guppies on Islamic science and inventions.

      Just to let you know the quotes I provided were by western historians and there are 1000 more... Perhapes all historians from around the world are full of crap and Indians history is right... right... yeah sure.


    16. #16
      ZZ
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      Originally posted by Abdali:

      I don't blame you its Indian schools. Do some research on Islamic science & culture and then we will talk. Perhapes ask guppies on Islamic science and inventions.



      Due to nonsense of secularism, indian history books dont utter a word against vandals. You can always get one quote or other from here and there. But u are not able to tell me what 'Islamic' pursuits drove Aghan and Persian vandals to raild delhji and loot away peackock throne and other valuables from Mughal empire which was anyway muslim. Fact is that, ruler of delhi, includiung muslims have always been in danger from raiders coming from west. (the route they came in.) Whom did babar defeat? Ibrahim Lodhi! (or ur textbooks tell some rajesshwar chowhan?)

      The lesson is that beter security can not be ignored and we have to be always on guard against people coming from afghanistan and states from central asia, who have inhospitable lands and no training except in banditry.

      fortunately for india, now pakistan is a buffer state between those rogues and india. pak will be first to suffer if another invasion occurs through khaiber pass. time is not far away for that.


      [This message has been edited by ZZ (edited September 30, 2001).]

    17. #17
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      Originally posted by ZZ:

      Due to nonsense of secularism, indian history books dont utter a word against vandals. You can always get one quote or other from here and there. But u are not able to tell me what 'Islamic' pursuits drove Aghan and Persian vandals to raild delhji and loot away peackock throne and other valuables from Mughal empire which was anyway muslim. Fact is that, ruler of delhi, includiung muslims have always been in danger from raiders coming from west. (the route they came in.) Whom did babar defeat? Ibrahim Lodhi! (or ur textbooks tell some rajesshwar chowhan?)

      The lesson is that beter security can not be ignored and we have to be always on guard against people coming from afghanistan and states from central asia, who have inhospitable lands and no training except in banditry.

      fortunately for india, now pakistan is a buffer state between those rogues and india. pak will be first to suffer if another invasion occurs through khaiber pass. time is not far away for that.


      [This message has been edited by ZZ (edited September 30, 2001).]
      Now you are changing the subject completely, A very Indian attribute!! So tell us more about Islamic scientific cut and paste...
      According to your history crap Islamic civilization invented nothing. Tell us more what else do you know about islam.

    18. #18
      ZZ
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      Originally posted by Abdali:
      Now you are changing the subject completely, A very Indian attribute!! .

      nope! in fact, I am the one who is sticking to subject, 'Learning from the conquest of Indian subcontinent'.

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