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Old Nov 24th, 2008, 09:22 AM   #1
saregamapa
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Is United States redrawing the Pakistan map?

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — A redrawn map of South Asia has been making the rounds among Pakistani elites. It shows their country truncated, reduced to an elongated sliver of land with the big bulk of India to the east, and an enlarged Afghanistan to the west.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/wo...p&st=cse&scp=1

That the map was first circulated as a theoretical exercise in some American neoconservative circles matters little here. It has fueled a belief among Pakistanis, including members of the armed forces, that what the United States really wants is the breakup of Pakistan, the only Muslim country with nuclear arms.

“One of the biggest fears of the Pakistani military planners is the collaboration between India and Afghanistan to destroy Pakistan,” said a senior Pakistani government official involved in strategic planning, who insisted on anonymity as per diplomatic custom. “Some people feel the United States is colluding in this.”


That notion may strike Americans as strange coming from an ally of 50 years. But as the incoming Obama administration tries to coax greater cooperation from Pakistan in the fight against militancy, it can hardly be ignored.
This is a country where years of weak governance have left ample room for conspiracy theories of every kind. But like much such thinking anywhere, what is said frequently reveals the tender spots of a nation’s psyche. Educated Pakistanis sometimes say that they are paranoid, but add that they believe they have good reason.

Pakistan, a 61-year-old country marbled by ethnic fault lines, is a collection of just four provinces, which often seem to have little in common. Virtually every one of its borders, drawn almost arbitrarily in the last gasps of the British Empire, is disputed with its neighbors, not least Pakistan’s bitter and much larger rival, India.


These facts and the insecurities that flow from them inform many of Pakistan’s disagreements with the United States, including differences over the need to rein in militancy in the form of Al Qaeda and the Taliban.
The new democratically elected president, Asif Ali Zardari, has visited the United States twice since assuming power three months ago. He has been generous in his praise of the Bush administration. But that stance is criticized at home as fawning and wins him little popularity among a steadfastly anti-American public.


So how will the promise by President-elect Barack Obama for a new start between the United States and Pakistan be received here? How can it be begun?
One possibility could be some effort to ease Pakistani anxieties, even as the United States demands more from Pakistan. That will probably mean a regional approach to what, it is increasingly apparent, are regional problems. There, Pakistani and American interests may coincide.
American military commanders, including Gen. David H. Petraeus, have started to argue forcefully that the solution to the conflict in Afghanistan, where the American war effort looks increasingly uncertain, must involve a wide array of neighbors.


Mr. Obama has said much the same. Several times in his campaign, he laid out the crux of his thinking. Reducing tensions between Pakistan and India would allow Pakistan to focus on the real threat — the Qaeda and Taliban militants who are tearing at the very fabric of the country.

“If Pakistan can look towards the east with confidence, it will be less likely to believe its interests are best advanced through cooperation with the Taliban,” Mr. Obama wrote in Foreign Affairs magazine last year.
But such an approach faces sizable obstacles, the biggest being the conflict over Kashmir. The Himalayan border area has been disputed since the partition of India and Pakistan in 1947, and remains divided between them.
Pakistan’s army and intelligence agencies have long fought a proxy war with India by sponsoring militant groups to terrorize the Indian-administered part of the territory.


After the 9/11 attacks, Pakistan reined in those militants for a time, but this year the militants have renewed their incursions. Talks between the sides made some progress in recent years but have petered out.
Pakistanis warn that the United States should not appear too eager to mediate. First, they caution, India has always regarded Kashmir as a bilateral question. India, they note, also faces a general election early next year, an inappropriate moment to push such an explosive issue.


Second, some Pakistanis are concerned about the reliability of the United States as a fair mediator. “Given the United States’ record on the Palestinian issue, where the Palestinians had to move 10 times backwards and the Israelis moved the goal posts, the same could happen here,” said Zubair Khan, a former commerce minister who has watched Kashmir closely.

It was discouraging, Mr. Khan said, that the United States ignored the importance of the huge nonviolent protests by Muslims in Kashmir against Indian rule this summer. “Anywhere else, and they would have been hailed as an Orange Revolution,” he said, referring to the wave of protests that led to a change in the Ukrainian government in 2004.



Such distrust has been exacerbated by what Pakistanis see as the Bush administration’s tilt toward India.
Exhibit A for the Pakistanis is India’s nuclear deal with the United States, which allows India to engage in nuclear trade even though it never joined the global Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Pakistan, with its recent history of spreading nuclear technology, received no comparable bargain.
The nuclear deal was devised in Washington to position India as a strategic counterbalance to China. That is how it is seen in Pakistan, too, but with no enthusiasm.
“The United States has changed the whole nuclear order by this deal, and in doing so is containing China, the only friend Pakistan has in the region,” said Talat Masood, a retired Pakistani Army general.
Further, Pakistan is upset about the advances India is making in Afghanistan, with no checks from the United States, Mr. Masood said.
India has recently made big investments in Afghanistan, where Pakistan has been competing for influence. These include a road to the Iranian border that will eventually give India access to the Iranian port of Chabahar, circumventing Pakistan.
India has offered training for Afghanistan’s military, given assistance for a new Parliament building in Kabul and has re-opened consulates along the border with Pakistan.
The consulates, the Pakistanis charge, are used by India as cover to lend support to a long-running separatist movement in Baluchistan Province. (Baluchistan was even made an independent state on the theoretical map, which accompanied an article by Ralph Peters titled “Blood Borders: How a Better Middle East Would Look,” originally published in Armed Forces Journal.)
Both India and Pakistan in fact have a long and destructive history of, gently or not, putting in the knife. Exhibit A for the Indians is the bombing in July of its embassy in Afghanistan, which American and Indian officials say can be traced to groups linked to Pakistan’s spy agency.
If the Obama administration is indeed to convince Pakistanis that militancy, not the Indian Army, presents the gravest threat, it will not be easy.
The commander of American forces in Afghanistan, Gen. David D. McKiernan, got a taste of the challenge this month, when he visited Islamabad and sat down with a group of about 70 members of Pakistan’s Parliament at the residence of the United States ambassador, Anne W. Patterson. Their attitude showed an almost total incomprehension of the reasons for American behavior in the region after Sept. 11, 2001.
“A couple of the questions I got were, ‘Why did you Americans come to Afghanistan when it was so peaceful, before you got there?’ ” General McKiernan recalled during an appearance at the Atlantic Council in Washington last week.


“Another one,” he said, “was, ‘We understand that you’ve invited a thousand Indian soldiers to serve in Afghanistan by Christmas.’ ”
There was no truth to the claim, he told the Pakistanis. “We have a lot of work to do,” he told his audience in Washington.
Indeed, among ordinary Pakistanis, many still regard Al Qaeda more positively than the United States, polls find. Talk shows here often include arguments that the suicide bombings in Pakistan are payback for the Pakistani Army fighting an American war.


Some commentators suggest that the United States is actually financing the Taliban. The point is to tie down the Pakistani Army, they say, leaving the way open for the Americans to grab Pakistan’s nuclear weapons.
Recently, in the officer’s mess in Bajaur, the northern tribal region where the Pakistani Army is tied down fighting the militants, one officer offered his own theory: Osama bin Laden did not exist, he told a visiting journalist.
Rather, he was a creation of the Americans, who needed an excuse to invade Afghanistan and encroach on Pakistan.






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Old Nov 24th, 2008, 09:54 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saregamapa View Post
Is United States redrawing the Pakistan map?

.....
No! unless you want to believe the Islamists terrorist propaganda. The news article you quoted has a heading:

Memo from Islamabad.

It simply shows the type of conspiracy theories being spread around in Pakistan and not in America.

FYI - US did not redraw the map of Iraq where they have 100s of thousands of Amerrican troops AND no Iraqi army.

And you think they can redraw the map of Pakistan where Pakistan has 300,000 combat ready troops and the USA only has 17,000 troops. Even if Obama makes good on his pledge of sending more troops, the total US troops will not be more than 20,000.

So unless you think Pakistanis are more pathetic soldiers than the all the Arab soliders combined, the answer again is a big NO. Saddam's army ran like goats and sheep. Do you expect the same from Pakistani army. Remember we are not talking about Khasadars and Pashtun FC men who in some instances fell pray to taliban. The regular army is a different story. So let's quit rumor mongering.

Read the NYT essay again. It is not talking about USA's action, but rather Pakistani theories.

p.s. And Iraq BTW is a tiny country compared to Pakistan.


pps. Pakistanis should never talk about breakup of country. This is like you shout in the streets at the top of your lungs that one of family members is getting ready and expecting to be raped.







Last edited by Spock; Nov 24th, 2008 at 02:03 PM.. Reason: Removed racist comment
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Old Nov 24th, 2008, 09:59 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burqaposhx View Post
No! unless you want to believe the Islamists terrorist propaganda. The news article you quoted has a heading:

Memo from Islamabad.

It simply shows the type of conspiracy theories being spread around in Pakistan and not in America.
I see, so now the Pakistani Govt officials are Islamists too?

Quote:
“One of the biggest fears of the Pakistani military planners is the collaboration between India and Afghanistan to destroy Pakistan,” said a senior Pakistani government official involved in strategic planning, who insisted on anonymity as per diplomatic custom. “Some people feel the United States is colluding in this.”






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Old Nov 24th, 2008, 10:19 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Data View Post
I see, so now the Pakistani Govt officials are Islamists too?
They may not be Islamists (depends on individuals) but some of them have certainly bought into Islamists terrorist propaganda and they are now terror sympathizers. Why else the Islamists could strike Islamiabd so easily?

Like many posters on gs, Pakistani officials (some), and almost 95% of English news media, and 100% Urdu media believes in and spreads Islamist propaganda against Pakistan.

Luckily this propaganda and the disease has not reached at the level of Gen. Kiyani. Only low level (majors and captains) believe in sugar quoted Jihadi poison, so we are OK. But the day majority of leadership becomes Jihadi (God forbid), we surely will become Afghan barbarians or their African tribal cousins such as Somlians, liberians, and the Congo-ens.






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Old Nov 24th, 2008, 10:23 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burqaposhx View Post


No! unless you want to believe the Islamists terrorist propaganda.






NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, Not againnnnnnn!!!






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Old Nov 24th, 2008, 10:38 AM   #6
burqaposhx
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if USA is truly embarking on destroying Pakistan, here is how it will act. This is based on US's war on Germany and Japan.

1. Kick all Pakistani borns out of the country (or put them in concentration camps).
2. Put US born Pakistanis in concentration camps.
3. Attack Pakistan.

Let's see if step 1 has been taken by the USA then we'll wait for step 3.






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Old Nov 24th, 2008, 10:40 AM   #7
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^^ If I am not mistaken, these steps were taken by Obama's hero FDR who was a democrat. So don't feel that only Republicans would use things like Patriot act.






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Old Nov 24th, 2008, 11:23 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burqaposhx View Post
if USA is truly embarking on destroying Pakistan, here is how it will act. This is based on US's war on Germany and Japan.

1. Kick all Pakistani borns out of the country (or put them in concentration camps).
2. Put US born Pakistanis in concentration camps.
3. Attack Pakistan.

Let's see if step 1 has been taken by the USA then we'll wait for step 3.
Man, you seriously dont know what you talk about!

Did U.S. implement the steps 1 & 2 to Afghanis or Iraqis before attacking the two countries? Did U.S plan steps 1&2 for Iranis before attacking Iran??? Forget Germany & Japan, those were world wars. And I'll have to investigate whether this is true or no abt these two countries.

That doesnt even make a single point of sense at all, especially against Pakistanis!






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Old Nov 24th, 2008, 11:26 AM   #9
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hahaha so Burqaposh, the splitting of Pakistan in 1971 into two countries, which mind you was done under the authority of the US with George Harrison singing tunes, was because of Islamists I presume?






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Old Nov 24th, 2008, 12:19 PM   #10
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it was in no rush to grab obl

its in no rush to leave afghanistan but wants to extend the war to pakistan. it certainly wants a part of pakistan. i cant deny that







H A R D T A L K
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Old Nov 24th, 2008, 12:59 PM   #11
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I am not sure if De La Mar is going to change the US map at this time...

PS: I need a little more research about the fault line...

Correction: Las Palmas replaces De La Mar...







The art of entering into Nothingness.

Last edited by Zabardast; Nov 25th, 2008 at 10:41 AM..
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Old Nov 24th, 2008, 01:20 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burqaposhx View Post
Pakistanis should never talk about breakup of country. This is like you shout in the streets at the top of your lungs that one of family members is getting ready and expecting to be raped. That is ....poof...
That is very racist!







The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education . . . . Albert Einstein

Last edited by Spock; Nov 24th, 2008 at 02:04 PM.. Reason: Edited out Quoted Post
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Old Nov 25th, 2008, 10:38 AM   #13
Robert
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Is United States redrawing the Pakistan map?
No, can't.

Here is a list of countries who can change Pakistan's map, because they successfully did it in past
1. Pakistan






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Old Nov 25th, 2008, 07:13 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadan View Post
That is very racist!
It's not about Pakistan. Burqaposhx is an anti-Muslim. Hence spreads his venom against all Muslims, including Pakistanis.







"Ana mazloom hussein"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA1L18wKHzY&feature=related
http://www.tebyan.net/Religion_Thoughts/Articles/Miscellaneous/2008/1/29/59771.html
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Old Nov 25th, 2008, 07:54 PM   #15
Salahuddin Ayyubi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
Is United States redrawing the Pakistan map?
No, can't.

Here is a list of countries who can change Pakistan's map, because they successfully did it in past
1. Pakistan

Robert, I could not have said better myself.






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Old Nov 25th, 2008, 07:57 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SID_NY View Post
Man, you seriously dont know what you talk about!

That doesnt even make a single point of sense at all, especially against Pakistanis!

Your are not the only one






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Old Nov 25th, 2008, 08:19 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
Is United States redrawing the Pakistan map?
No, can't.

Here is a list of countries who can change Pakistan's map, because they successfully did it in past
1. Pakistan
hahhahahaa

So True

Pakistanis are their own worst enemies

thats why I have totally given up on this country

When people ask me where I am from, I say Turkey






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Old Nov 25th, 2008, 09:52 PM   #18
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should have put this pesky question infront of your...







Last edited by Spock; Nov 25th, 2008 at 09:57 PM.. Reason: Removed personal attack
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Old Nov 25th, 2008, 11:03 PM   #19
Waahid Doyum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
Is United States redrawing the Pakistan map?
No, can't.

Here is a list of countries who can change Pakistan's map, because they successfully did it in past
1. Pakistan
Well said. While the obsessed will continue to wonder what the US is doing ot not doing, our own home grown terrorists squad will continue to blow up roadside bombs, suicide bombs, and assassinations to divide the country further.






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