Originally Posted by ~SONA~

Can you go back to past ? but you can see the present, yes?
I am showing you the true face of india and hindu, and if you consider the killings and burning of thousands of Muslims in a so called democratic country as 'bitter pills' then be with it, no need to blame Pakistan for the so called insurgency then, swallow it as bitter pills as well.

Originally Posted by ~SONA~

"killing of Gujarat has nothing to do with democracy as such"

so what it has to do with ? just a routine event for indian govt? no investigation? no punishment? no compensation to victims? no apology to the world? even after 7 years ?
Keep on killing thousands of Muslims and continue crying the song of Largest Democracy ?


No I am not agreeing with you. I don't swallow any pills, In Pakistan millions of hindus are living, we have mandirs etc, but you may never hear such thing in Pakistan, because we treat them as Pakistani not as hindu.

Originally Posted by Raj_ind

And what U want to say? Those killings have everything to do with Indian democracy? With same yardsticks muslims killings during the regiem of Khulfa-E-Rashidun have to do with Islamic laws? Will U agree or will U take a hypocrite's stand?


And dont compare hindus status in pakistan with muslim's status in India, in Pakistan can hindus dare hoisting Indian flag? can they cheer India openly during a India Pakistan match? can they shout through loudspeakers in their mandirs that muslims are on wrong path and religion and blah blah blah?

Leave it mere bhai, hindus arent even given equal political rigthts like muslims have been given in India. So what could be the cause of conflict with hindus in Pakistan? Give urself some relief with ur trademark hatred so that U can think healthy.

Peace?

Originally Posted by PaRtyGuyz

I can't believe it, is ISI behind that lol

Originally Posted by Guy1

party guy,i was kidding...by the way there r many parts of india which dont want to be india part..especially muslims of india r in great trouble..they dont have jobs,education etc..
i always believe tht isi should create mess in india by raising hindus and muslims tensions..

Originally Posted by aam bandha

OMG are things so bad in Pakistan that you now have to recycle bad news about India...... ....... once again mods are sleeping .... this happened last year

Pakistani flags in three paces in Assam

Here deal with this ........ Pakistan made it to top ten again ...... once again worry about you flag in your own country ......

Pakistan at 10th position in top ten ''failed states'' - GEO.tv

Originally Posted by sandhu786

It's sad to see muslims in India suffering. Muslims have long suffered injustice at the hands of the majority community in India. Mumbai attack was an outburst regarding the same. I wish late (and the best of mughals) Aurangzeb or Akbar Emperor should have converted entire India to Islam- there would have no fights, no tension at all.

Originally Posted by Med911

You are very presumptuous... You Indians certainly do presume far to much.
You assume that a person who were to raise an Indian flag in Pakistan would have what happen to them? And what are you basing your assumption on? We in Pakistan havent had riots on the scale of yours in India, so why assume that Pakistanis would react in such a way? You simply generalize based on far to little.

What do you really know of Pakistanis? Or do you simply bulk them into a single group, and project all kinds of qualities on them based solely on your understanding of the Indian psyche...

And dont take this as lambasting democracy in general, after all, Pakistan is also a democracy. Its a criticism of the Indian system, and indirectly, the India system of democracy, and thats what the other person was referring to.. The Gujrat riots were a stain on Indians, as were all the rest of your riots over the years. But the point here is that despite what you say, the chief architect has gotten away scot free, the police who were negligent, have gotten away, and the thousands who are guilty of murder will also go free. It only exposes the flaw in Indian society and thus in Indian democracy. While you make laws that are pluralistic and fair, you dont apply them half as well.
While the system is meant to be representative, Muslims are still vastly under represented, and still beholden to the whims of the majority. And the bottom line is wile u herald the greatness of the Indian system, you fail to take account of its many failings.

And no I dont think a Muslim could get away with raising a Pakistani flag in India. Judging from how your people have reacted in the past, I would assume such a person would be in big trouble.
A remote village in Assam, inhabited by Hindus or whatever they are is one thing,
lets see a Muslim raise a Pakistani flag in Delhi or Mumbai...

Originally Posted by Raj_ind

Such decent langguage and thinking is breathtaking to behold. I hope U are a male. So bhai, zara soch samajh ke bola karo, mere khayaal se GS ka mayar abhi aisa nahin hua hai ki itni adab se sarabor bate ki jaye yahan pe.

The topic of this thread is not surprising. Coz there are as much as 140 million muslims living in India, so these kind of things are natural to happen. In fact Islam doesnt teaches the virtue of Nationality or Hubb-Ul-Watni(Pl correct me anyone if I have written it wrongly). Rather it teaches love and support for Ummah. So whats the big deal if muslims in India support Pakistan inspite of India? Being a good Muslims they are supposed to do that.

However such kind of activities have given birth to right wing parties like BJP, who bring these kind of frequent incidents to support their point that majority of muslims in India are traitors. Poor guys,dont have much knowledge of Islam and its true teachings.

Anyways as hindu dominated country we have to live with and keep loving and giving equal rights to our muslims brothers and sisters coz we are the largest democracy in the world. And we have to swallow bitter pills like this one to enjoy this place.

Peace.

Originally Posted by Raj_ind

Peace Med 911

I m not presuming anything mere mohtaram bhai, the only thing I m asking is whether a hindu dominated locality see an Indian flag raised or crackers being busted while India is winning a match against Pakistan? We Indians have been seeing all this eversince the partition happened. These kind of actions of muslims have helped parties like Shiv Sena and BJP increase their base. They openly brand muslims as traitors. While hindus like myself (who are a majority) oppose them tooth and nail. And U can see the results.




Well we dont know much of Pakistanis, but we can claim that we know far far more about U as than U know about us. The reason is that we know at least about muslims and muslim psyche.

.

I admit that Pakistan is also a democracy and not of Indian kind too. But being a democracy(Whatever like) Pakistan and Pakistanis have decieved the very cause on which Pakistan was formed, ie Islam. I dare U to differ with me if U have the guts. So dont talk too too much, it will only expose ur (Pakistan"s) hypocricy. U or other person are very less qualified to actually criticise Indian democracy.

I admit that Gujrat riots are stain on Indian democracy and hindus stoo. We have to live by it, but we can correct ourselves as human beings and good citizens. Are u ready to give that chance to us?

But same yardsticks by which killing of Gujrat muslims and other riots in India are measured, killing of muslims in battle of siffin and camel (which saw about 90,000 muslims massacred) is a stain on Islam and khilafat. Have guts to admit it? Or will U too take a hypocrite's stand?

Now tell me whether there have been riots in Pakistan or not? Shia-Sunni, Mohajir-Pathan, Quadiyani-Sunni, etc. Have ppls been killed in those bloody riots or not? How have U washed ur stains? Pl let us know. And think for a while that when ppls of same faith can kill each other in the name of religion, why cant this happen when ppls of two entirely opposite religions are living together?

And mind it, some ppls who participated in those riots are walking free, and some ppls have been awarded punishment too. Dont always talk about the empty part of the glass. Just see how there has not been any riot after 2002 in Gujrat even after so many temptations (repeated attack on temples ). Investigations in Gujrat riots is still on and we can hope of some good results coming.

How can U say muslims are unrepresented? Muslims are free to choose their leaders through ballot. And U can see that there is enough representation of muslims in all assemblies and parliament too. Pl give up ur ignorance.




Well U are right that a muslim cant get away raising a pakistani flag in a hindu dominated area. Those wicked idolators will take good care of him. But muslims too are clever enough to do this in the ghettos. Raise Pakistani flag, shout slogans, and burn crackers at appropriate times. And they are seldom in trouble doing this. This is mostly done in ghettos of Delhi and Mumbai itself. Come to India once to visit those places to get urself educated how bold those muslims are in these matters. I think some honourable Indian Muslim members on this forum will tell U all this happening.

Pl let me know which place Pakistani hindus do all this?

Peace.

Originally Posted by Raj_ind

Such decent langguage and thinking is breathtaking to behold. I hope U are a male. So bhai, zara soch samajh ke bola karo, mere khayaal se GS ka mayar abhi aisa nahin hua hai ki itni adab se sarabor bate ki jaye yahan pe.

The topic of this thread is not surprising. Coz there are as much as 140 million muslims living in India, so these kind of things are natural to happen. In fact Islam doesnt teaches the virtue of Nationality or Hubb-Ul-Watni(Pl correct me anyone if I have written it wrongly). Rather it teaches love and support for Ummah. So whats the big deal if muslims in India support Pakistan inspite of India? Being a good Muslims they are supposed to do that.

However such kind of activities have given birth to right wing parties like BJP, who bring these kind of frequent incidents to support their point that majority of muslims in India are traitors. Poor guys,dont have much knowledge of Islam and its true teachings.

Anyways as hindu dominated country we have to live with and keep loving and giving equal rights to our muslims brothers and sisters coz we are the largest democracy in the world. And we have to swallow bitter pills like this one to enjoy this place.

Peace.

Originally Posted by Med911

Long winded, but lets see if I can answer you.
Fair enough... BJP ki jai!

I have met MANY Indian Hindus in my life. But I never claimed to know you. What do know is that I can infrences regarding India behavor in certain specific situations, because I have seen how you have behaved in such situations in the past.
Secondly, Muslims in India are very different from Muslims in Pakistan. Even within Pakistan, the different ethnic groups are very different. In fact. I would venture to guess that you dont even know Indian Muslims as they are even more diverse inIndian then in Pakistan.
So your claim that you know Pakistanis based on knowing Indian Muslims, doesnt hold water.

You dont know Islam very well either. Islam and Democracy are not incompatible. You possibly heard some khutba from some extremist in India and think that must be the end all...
So please, dont debate religion with me. You dont know anything about Islam either.

No, I have seen democracy first hand. So I am atleast qualified to judge democracy in India. And hence I do

Its not me who needs to give you a chance. Im not the one stopping your country from investigating and prosecuting the culprits...
Im sure there are many stains on the Kahlifat, but this discussion isnt about Islam or Khalifat.
And no, thankfully we havent had the same kind of riots on the scale you see in Indian.
We have certainly had criminals and terrorists who commit such crimes, but the genral populus lives in peace. in India the riots are commited by the general population.
And m glad India is prosecuting some of the criminals. Even if the chief archtect was re elected.

As for Muslims in India... Here is a good article from te NY times.
MEMO FROM INDIA; Report Shows Muslims Near Bottom of Social Ladder - New York Times

Here is what your own PM Monmohan Singh said... FROM THE ARTICLE-
'The community is relatively poor, more illiterate, has lower access to education, LOWER REPRESENTATION in public- and private-sector jobs and lower availability of bank credit for self-employment. In urban areas, the community mostly lives in slums characterized by poor municipal infrastructure.''

Well if they cant do it in Hindu dominated areas, then that just proves the point.
And you where Hindus live in Pakistan

There are many in Karachi, but I honestly dont think anything would happen to them if they supported India in cricket or raised an Indian flag. Maybe I am being naive, but I dont think the Hindu will be killed. Pakistanis arent that rabidly nationalist...

Originally Posted by Raj_ind

U might have met many Indian hindus, but U must not have lived with them as family members and friendly neibhours. I can boast of that. I have passed 25 years of my life in a muslim dominated city and locality.

If U are hinting at very few incidents of riots which occured when Pakistan victory was celebrated by muslims, than Plz count how many times Pakistan has won against India and how many times riots did break out. U will find ur conclusion. Each victory of Pakistan is widely celebrated by a particular section of muslims in most part of India. We have been living with it.




Well how muslims in India are different than Pakistani muslims? Dont they offer namaz? dont they hold long processions on moharram and holy prophet's birthday? are they anything less fanatic in terms of religion? So how diversity among Indian muslims can stop me from knowing them? Plz add to my knowledge that how Indian muslims are different than their pakistani counterpart.




I might not know about Islam VERY WELL, still I assure U that I know it quiet well and Alhamdullillah I m studying it and trying to learn it more and more. And ur statement that Islam and democracy are compitable proves that U too dont know Islam VERY WELL. It was not some extremist in India who claimed that democracy is equivalant to major SHIRK, rather it was famous Pakistani Islamic scholar Israr sahib. U can confirm it urself.

Plz dont claim again that I donk know anything about Islam. If U have any doubt, than debate is always a mannered way out.



I m not going to contest ur claim, but I had thrown a rather harsh allegation at Pakistan and Pakistanis that they decieved the very cause for which Pakistan was formed. U are yet to dismiss it or accept it. Will U now?




Well as I said procecution has already been done in some cases, in some cases it were victims themselves who took money from accused and became hostile, (U can ask for references if u wish), and investigation is still on in some cases. Lets hope that guilty are brought to book and are punished accordingly.

I appreciate ur admission regarding stains on khilafat. and discussion isnt about khilafat or Islam either, but all I wanted to say was when muslims can kill muslims under the best system of khilafat and Islam, than anything can happen in fake systems like democracy. But see how inspite of ppls of two opposite faith living together and enjoying full religious independence ( as seen rare in the world), India is rather peaceful than even Ur country. U have used heavy ammuniation against muslims in mosques, U have dropped bombs in madarsas, and what not. (pl ask for reference if U wish).



Well what U are saying? havent U have imposition of curfew in ur cities due to riots? What is difference between a Pakistani riot and and Indian riot? hasnt innocent muslims died in riots in ur country? are U kidding with me and the forum? what is ur appropriate scale which U are claiming?

Its criminals and terrorists in India even who commit such crime of rioting. general populace in India live in more peace than anywhere in the world or its neibhourhood. And had general population been commiting riots in India than there would have been no muslim living here. Hindu here outnumber muslims by 7 to 1.



Not only In India, Muslims over the world are relatively poor as compared to hindus, provided u take into account wealth produced through skills and industry and not by natural resources or property. Same is in case of education. Hindus are way ahead universally by muslims in this field too.

LOWER REPRESENTATION in private and public sector job is because of less awareness of education among muslims. But things are changing fast Alhamdullillah. Avaiablity of bank credit is related with repayment of loans. Unfortunately muslims have been not so good in repayment in the past, so banks take a cautious stand while distrituting loans. Hindus too have loan crunch if their repayment history is not up to mark. Its pure business brother. Regarding living in slums, it is related by wealth. There are wealthy muslims who live in palaces throughout India. And hindus too live in sllums if they cant afford a better accomodation for themselves. Infrastructure is not selectively
bad for any community. Pl be realistic and face hard truth.

Peace.

Originally Posted by Captain FT

well man i have lived personally with indian hindus for 9 years in abroad and they were our neighbour and they treated muslims of Pakistan as achoots. understand?

so we do know dont talk about that ok?

we all better know what indian hindutvas are

Originally Posted by Raj_ind

Captain, U consider muslims as pure and hindus as impure, U believe that there is shaitaniyat on hindu's face. dont U? So U should be the last person to make such complaint.

U can never know what hindutvas are, The sack of hatred U are bearing on ur shoulder wont let ur mind work properly in this regard.

Peace.

Originally Posted by afishcurry

And if you watch Bolta Pakistan regularlry you will see full fledged anti pakistani songs being sung in public transport and Baluch nantionalist flags being flung there.

No they are not RAe agents . BOlta Pakistan did a week long show with stundets and workers for various deptts in baluchistan and they all were together is asking for either eutonomy or azaadi..

Go figure.