ISPR: Army has evidence of Indian support for Waziristan Terrorists: Weapons, Papers - Page 2

happyheart · Nov 3rd, 2009, 02:29 AM

Its not difficult to prove to India or the world what the involvement of India is in Balochistan.
Pakistan did give evidence to india last time in Sharm el Sheikh Egypt.
But both countries have to listen to their master USA for what direction they are going to take, unfortunatly.

CM · Nov 3rd, 2009, 03:38 AM

<EDIT> You all should know by now that any weapon produced is marked with a unique country specific "water-mark" on each and every weapon to identify who has produced the weapons.

vineshvk · Nov 3rd, 2009, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT

This is quite significant. This is more than just Rehman Malik making vague allegations of Indian activity in Balochistan, this is the Army itself having top brass announce that weapons and papers linking India to Waziristan have been found.

Hopefully there will be a broader disclosure of this by the Foreign Office.

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Proof of Indian hand South Waziristan: army

ISLAMABAD: The security forces have found substantial evidence of Indian involvement for assisting terrorists in South Waziristan Agency, Director General ISPR Major General Athar Abbas said.

‘Indian literature and weapons under the use of terrorists have been recovered from South Waziristan and more evidence is being gathered,’ he said addressing a joint media briefing on Operation Rah-e-Nijat here Monday.

Minister for Information and Broadcasting Qamar Zaman Kaira, Secretary Information Suhail Mansoor and Principal Information Officer Ch Rashid Ahmed were also present.

‘We have sent all the proofs of Indian involvement to the Foreign Office for their onward presentation at the appropriate forum,’ he said.—APP

lot of text but no proof.
What is indian literature. Its so vague. Why no specifics. Do you think Pakistan army would remain idle if they find any concrete proof of Indian involvement. May be these are from Kashmiri separatist movement, printed in India and smuggled to Afghanistan or Pakistan, which may contain lot of religious fanaticism.

Sarsaparilla · Nov 3rd, 2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeevayPakistan

So, why would India do this? Do they want another Afghanistan at their border?

You are right bro. Last thing India would want is another Afganistan at their border. A split Pakistan would be a splitting headache for India. This is just ISPR trying to justify its own existence.

ehsan · Nov 3rd, 2009, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarsaparilla

You are right bro. Last thing India would want is another Afganistan at their border. A split Pakistan would be a splitting headache for India. This is just ISPR trying to justify its own existence.

Why would they want to justify their own existence?

mAd_ScIeNtIsT · Nov 3rd, 2009, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vigoratus

http://www.app.com.pk/photo/photo_li...f19bc09cea.jpg

This particular photo is very concerning, for 4 reasons.

1) These shells are visibly 81mm mortar shells rather than 82mm ( Here is a Turkish 81mm shell, it looks exactly the same, whereas all 82mm shells look different ) . Do any amount of reearch, and you will find many 81mm shells of this design with slight variances, and absolutely no 82mm shells that look like this. Why are these shells labelled 82mm?
(Note: 81mm shells work in 82mm mortars, though with reduced accuracy)

2) These shells are visibly MUCH newer than the rest of the ordnance in the photos, which are obviously old and partially corroded. These shells are in PERFECT condition, ie they are new. Someone has been supplying them recently to the terrorists.

3) These shells are obviously not made in India - India manufactures 81mm shells that looks completely different. They are not made in Pakistan either, ours look different too. These shells are, however, made in many, many western countries. From the USA to Turkey, shells that look like these are in mass production. However, no manufacturers marks the lot number with the format LOT-XXXX as in these photos. With one exception: Soltam Systems of Israel.
81mm Family
Soltam is the only manufacturer of 81mm shells who's website I've seen that marks the shell lot number with LOT followed by 4 digits.

==========================================

a) Israel has been known to be selling many munitions including mortars and mortar munitions to India. I believe that the evidence currently presented and at hand is that these shells were at least of Israeli origin, probably part of their arms sales to India.

b) The Taliban (and all Afghans) use predominantly Soviet style weapons, as these dominated the war against the USSR. Soviet 82mm mortars were made to be able to also fire western 81mm shells, such as the ones on display here.

c) So what the Pak army has on display is fresh, new 81mm shells, deliberately mislabelled as 82mm shells and given to the Taliban. Why the mislabelling? Perhaps so that the Taliban thought they were getting a good deal and original ammunition for their mortars? Or perhaps simply so that Taliban knew what to use them in?

d) Israel would not have sold deliberately mislabelled ammunition to India. The Indian government would have had to ask specifically for the mislabelling

e) The Pakistan Army will be smart enough to know all the information I just gave. The fact that they have made no mention of Israel means that they believe Israel is not knowingly involved with the supply of ammunition to these terrorists; Pakistan appears to be pointing the finger at India alone.

=========================================

Summary:

These shells are of neither Pakistani or Indian origin. These shells are 81mm shells of western design that have been mislabelled as 82mm.
How did these end up in the Taliban's hands?
Israel manufactures shells like these and marks them with this lot ID format. Israel is known to sell muniitions including mortars to India.
It seems as though India has provided these shells through to the Taliban, where they are operated in 82mm mortar tubes.

hhunaeh · Nov 3rd, 2009, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT

Summary:

These shells are of neither Pakistani or Indian origin. These shells are 81mm shells of western design that have been mislabelled as 82mm.
How did these end up in the Taliban's hands?
Israel manufactures shells like these and marks them with this lot ID format. Israel is known to sell muniitions including mortars to India.
It seems as though India has provided these shells through to the Taliban, where they are operated in 82mm mortar tubes.

As soon as it is discovered that India does not make 82mm mortars, Israel comes into the picture. What about the Chinese weaponry lying next to the so called Indian mortars?We all know who buys Chinese weapons.

mercenary2k · Nov 3rd, 2009, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT

Summary:

These shells are of neither Pakistani or Indian origin. These shells are 81mm shells of western design that have been mislabelled as 82mm.
How did these end up in the Taliban's hands?
Israel manufactures shells like these and marks them with this lot ID format. Israel is known to sell muniitions including mortars to India.
It seems as though India has provided these shells through to the Taliban, where they are operated in 82mm mortar tubes.

They could have been stolen as the Taliban have hit NATO convoys numerous times. They were even seen driving in a stolen US Humvee....

Please don't bring Israel into this. You will give all conspiracy loving Pakistanis a orgasm they can't handle.

mAd_ScIeNtIsT · Nov 3rd, 2009, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mercenary2k

They could have been stolen as the Taliban have hit NATO convoys numerous times. They were even seen driving in a stolen US Humvee....

Please don't bring Israel into this. You will give all conspiracy loving Pakistanis a orgasm they can't handle.

So do you deny that
a) Israel sells mortar ammunition to India

or

b) Pakistan's Army ID'd these rounds as being from India?

mercenary2k · Nov 3rd, 2009, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT

So do you deny that
a) Israel sells mortar ammunition to India

I don't doubt that Israel sells Mortar ammo to India since Israel is the 2nd largest supplier of Arms to India after Russia.

But its a tall order to conclude that Israel/India are involved in a conspiracy against Pakistan. A more likely scenario is that this was stolen ammo. Could have been stolen when the Taliban struck NATO convoys. Since Israel is a part of NATO and makes ammo according to NATO standards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT

or

b) Pakistan's Army ID'd these rounds as being from India?

Again...this ammo could be from India but its a misleading argument to conclude that India deliberately supplied ammo.

Can we also conclude that Russia is arming the Taliban due to the majority of ammo is from Russia?

kakaballi · Nov 3rd, 2009, 09:11 PM

^ You are right. It is actually NATO who armed Taliban and continue to do so.

How we help to arm the Taliban - Telegraph

mercenary2k · Nov 3rd, 2009, 11:46 PM

^^ thats like saying that if you get robbed....the robber didnt steal your money...you donated it to him...

vineshvk · Nov 4th, 2009, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT

This particular photo is very concerning, for 4 reasons.

1) These shells are visibly 81mm mortar shells rather than 82mm ( Here is a Turkish 81mm shell, it looks exactly the same, whereas all 82mm shells look different ) . Do any amount of reearch, and you will find many 81mm shells of this design with slight variances, and absolutely no 82mm shells that look like this. Why are these shells labelled 82mm?
(Note: 81mm shells work in 82mm mortars, though with reduced accuracy)

2) These shells are visibly MUCH newer than the rest of the ordnance in the photos, which are obviously old and partially corroded. These shells are in PERFECT condition, ie they are new. Someone has been supplying them recently to the terrorists.

3) These shells are obviously not made in India - India manufactures 81mm shells that looks completely different. They are not made in Pakistan either, ours look different too. These shells are, however, made in many, many western countries. From the USA to Turkey, shells that look like these are in mass production. However, no manufacturers marks the lot number with the format LOT-XXXX as in these photos. With one exception: Soltam Systems of Israel.
81mm Family
Soltam is the only manufacturer of 81mm shells who's website I've seen that marks the shell lot number with LOT followed by 4 digits.

==========================================

a) Israel has been known to be selling many munitions including mortars and mortar munitions to India. I believe that the evidence currently presented and at hand is that these shells were at least of Israeli origin, probably part of their arms sales to India.

b) The Taliban (and all Afghans) use predominantly Soviet style weapons, as these dominated the war against the USSR. Soviet 82mm mortars were made to be able to also fire western 81mm shells, such as the ones on display here.

c) So what the Pak army has on display is fresh, new 81mm shells, deliberately mislabelled as 82mm shells and given to the Taliban. Why the mislabelling? Perhaps so that the Taliban thought they were getting a good deal and original ammunition for their mortars? Or perhaps simply so that Taliban knew what to use them in?

d) Israel would not have sold deliberately mislabelled ammunition to India. The Indian government would have had to ask specifically for the mislabelling

e) The Pakistan Army will be smart enough to know all the information I just gave. The fact that they have made no mention of Israel means that they believe Israel is not knowingly involved with the supply of ammunition to these terrorists; Pakistan appears to be pointing the finger at India alone.

=========================================

Summary:

These shells are of neither Pakistani or Indian origin. These shells are 81mm shells of western design that have been mislabelled as 82mm.
How did these end up in the Taliban's hands?
Israel manufactures shells like these and marks them with this lot ID format. Israel is known to sell muniitions including mortars to India.
It seems as though India has provided these shells through to the Taliban, where they are operated in 82mm mortar tubes.

Is Isreal selling arms only to India.

happyheart · Nov 4th, 2009, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vineshvk

Is Isreal selling arms only to India.

Not concerned with anybody else
its india who is arming the terrorists in Pakistan
thats the topic and thats our main concern.

India should stop supporting and arming the terrorists in Pakistan.

Because if india thinks they are in trouble now!! when pakistan is destabalised then there is no india on the map u can say by to your bharat it will be like afghanistan.

yusufkhan1972 · Nov 4th, 2009, 11:47 AM

Mr Dukhi Heart kahe ko itni nafrat karte ho India se jaraa apne girebaan mein to jhank ke dekho. ye saare terrorist aap ke hi paale hue hain. Pakistani politicians who are crying of Indian involvement are trying to deflect public attention away from their utter faliure in providing security to their countymen. After few days they will forget all allegations because they don't have any solid proof of Indian involvement. I hope people like dukhi heart are also busy in propagating the same propoganda. But I have full faith on wise pakistani public as they will surely understand the game these petty politicians are playing ( you do not hear anything from top leaders like Zardari or Gilani in this respect)

happyheart · Nov 4th, 2009, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yusufkhan1972

Mr Dukhi Heart kahe ko itni nafrat karte ho India se jaraa apne girebaan mein to jhank ke dekho. ye saare terrorist aap ke hi paale hue hain. Pakistani politicians who are crying of Indian involvement are trying to deflect public attention away from their utter faliure in providing security to their countymen. After few days they will forget all allegations because they don't have any solid proof of Indian involvement. I hope people like dukhi heart are also busy in propagating the same propoganda. But I have full faith on wise pakistani public as they will surely understand the game these petty politicians are playing ( you do not hear anything from top leaders like Zardari or Gilani in this respect)

Well i think Hindu Khan that you are totally wrong about me
because i love India and Indian

you have totally wrong idea about me but whatever suits you or makes you sleep well at night!!!

burqaposhx · Nov 4th, 2009, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT

.....
Summary:

These shells are of neither Pakistani or Indian origin. These shells are 81mm shells of western design that have been mislabelled as 82mm.

...

Good technical analysis. Bravo.

Few questions though.

1. why India is giving just the mislabelled shells and not the launch tubes. I mean if someone has to go through the trouble of buying from Israel, then changing the lable, then shipping them all the way to Kabul, to Paktika to South Wazirastan?

When one can easily buy the 82 mm Russian stuff from the black market and at a cheaper rate and also save on Shipping and handling ?

Why are we basing all our analysis on 5 mislabeled mortar shells? I mean there is more than just 5 mortar shells.

What about truckloads of weapons? Can we not link those to India, Russia, China, or Israel?

happyheart · Nov 4th, 2009, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burqaposhx

Good technical analysis. Bravo.

Few questions though.

1. why India is giving just the mislabelled shells and not the launch tubes. I mean if someone has to go through the trouble of buying from Israel, then changing the lable, then shipping them all the way to Kabul, to Paktika to South Wazirastan?

When one can easily buy the 82 mm Russian stuff from the black market and at a cheaper rate and also save on Shipping and handling ?

Why are we basing all our analysis on 5 mislabeled mortar shells? I mean there is more than just 5 mortar shells.

What about truckloads of weapons? Can we not link those to India, Russia, China, or Israel?

Not impressed at all mate. totally not impressed.

mAd_ScIeNtIsT · Nov 4th, 2009, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burqaposhx

Good technical analysis. Bravo.

Few questions though.

1. why India is giving just the mislabelled shells and not the launch tubes. I mean if someone has to go through the trouble of buying from Israel, then changing the lable, then shipping them all the way to Kabul, to Paktika to South Wazirastan?

When one can easily buy the 82 mm Russian stuff from the black market and at a cheaper rate and also save on Shipping and handling ?

Why are we basing all our analysis on 5 mislabeled mortar shells? I mean there is more than just 5 mortar shells.

What about truckloads of weapons? Can we not link those to India, Russia, China, or Israel?

The launch tubes are available in the region in abundance - 82mm tubes were Soviet Army standard, given to the Afghan army during the Soviet era. Launch tubes don't get used up, the ammunition for them does. As I mentioned, 82mm tubes can fire 81mm ammo (thought he reverse doesn't work).

India already uses the 81mm standard, so ammunition from existing Indian stocks or suppliers could be supplied, rather than requiring locating a new, trustworhty source for 82mm shells.

Linking weapons is much harder. Even during the Soviet Occupation, the USA, UK, Saudi and Pakistan supplied the Afghans with a broad range or firearms, all untraceable, so that the foreign origin of the firearms themselves was hidden.

vigoratus · Nov 5th, 2009, 03:55 AM

But isn't thorough analysis of the ammunition, design, and/or products possible to reveal the origin of these weapons? There must be some way?