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    1. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by Anwer Pasha View Post
      It is better to reply this in Urdu
      اس لیے کہ انڈین آرمی نے کبھی اپنے ملک پر قبضہ نہیں کیا - اس لیےکہ انڈین آرمی نے کبھی اپنے ملک کے لیڈروں کو قتل نہیں کیا اس لیے کہ انڈین آرمی نے کبھی غیر ملکی آقاؤں کی خاطر اپنے لوگوں کو قتل نہیں کیا . اور انڈیا آرمی نے کبھی اپنے ملک کی حکومتوں کے خلاف سازش نہیں کی . اس لیے کہ انڈین آرمی نے کبھی مافیا گروپوں کی سرپرستی نہیں کی اور اس لیے کہ انڈین آرمی نے کبھی بھارتی شہریوں سے کاروبار نہیں چھینا
      Read this article and you will find all types of crimes of indian army you mentioned above.
      List of scandals in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      Last edited by ajazali; Sep 6th, 2012 at 05:18 AM.
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    2. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by muqawwee123 View Post
      AP uncle, we can't rely media so can you please tell what had happened really? Did India attacked or Pakistan started war?
      Ayub Khan started a proxy war by infiltrating so called mujahiden fighting with Indian army long before 65 war. These mujahiden almost reached Sirinagar to capture from Indian Army. Lal Bahadur Shastri, the then Indian PM was very shrewd and thought that India was going to lose Kashmir. He started full war with Pakistan which forced army under the guise of Mujahidin to defend Lahore and other areas. That was how full war started on September 6, 1965.

    3. #21
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ali_Syed View Post
      Indians also had to face separatist movements in different parts of their country but they never used gunship helicopters, they never trained monsters in their country (taleban), they never allowed drones to attack their people or carry out operations on the behest of foreign powers (for dollars), they never act as mercenaries of foreigners.
      Just a minor point. Secessionist movements in India are homegrown. Separatists are the people actually living in Assam/Nagaland etc. On the contrary, in Pakistan, these folks are imported. Waziristan is teeming with Afghanis, Uzbeks, Ughurs, Arabs and what not. They took advantage of the hospitality of the natives. There are secessionists in Baluchistan and Sindh as well, but the army has never gunshipped those places.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ali_Syed
      all due to the failed policies of two generals. One general trained religious extremists and another took an abrupt u-turn

      Another minor point. Training of extremists was ordered and begun by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. By the time Zia took over, it was too late to reverse course on this mistake, so he continued, and exacerbated it. Go back to Gulbadin Hikmatyar in the mid 70s.
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      Quote Originally Posted by ajazali View Post
      Read this article and you will find all types of crimes of indian army you mentioned above.
      List of scandals in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      Thank you for the link but those all are nothing against ours . India is a democracy and media is free so you can find this all . Only assassination of Liaqat Ali Khan was a bigger crime than these all .
      This is map in your link .


      Overview of the index of perception of corruption, 2010.
      9–10 6–6.9 3–3.9
      8–8.9 5–5.9 2–2.9
      7–7.9 4–4.9 1–1.9
      No Information

    5. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by Anwer Pasha View Post
      Thank you for the link but those all are nothing against ours . India is a democracy and media is free so you can find this all . Only assassination of Liaqat Ali Khan was a bigger crime than these all .
      This is map in your link .


      Overview of the index of perception of corruption, 2010.
      9–10 6–6.9 3–3.9
      8–8.9 5–5.9 2–2.9
      7–7.9 4–4.9 1–1.9
      No Information
      you can find many people who consider assassination of Liaqat Ali Khan an ordinary thing, but you should accept post #16
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    6. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by Silaaj View Post
      Just a minor point. Secessionist movements in India are homegrown. Separatists are the people actually living in Assam/Nagaland etc. On the contrary, in Pakistan, these folks are imported. Waziristan is teeming with Afghanis, Uzbeks, Ughurs, Arabs and what not. They took advantage of the hospitality of the natives. There are secessionists in Baluchistan and Sindh as well, but the army has never gunshipped those places.


      Another minor point. Training of extremists was ordered and begun by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. By the time Zia took over, it was too late to reverse course on this mistake, so he continued, and exacerbated it. Go back to Gulbadin Hikmatyar in the mid 70s.[/COLOR]
      As far as I know gunships have been used in Balochistan as well, as far as Sindh is concerned the nationalists are not that strong (partly due to Pakistan People's Party). The insurgencies in India are home grown agreed, on the other hand the insurgencies in Pakistan are all the after effects of our failed policies (the saddest part is we are not even willing to acknowledge them let alone rectify them). As far as I know the extremist problem that we have in Pakistan is due to the Afghan war which began under Zias regime, if you have information on the contrary please share. The state was feeling pressure due to the demand of Pashtunistan (and Afghanistan's support to it). The military supported creation of militants to infuse religious extremism in people to suppress the Pashtun nationalism (Pashtunistan) tendencies, now its up to us to judge if it has served its purpose or further complicated the matters. I think it would have been better if instead of creating these monsters the government at that time tried to improve the relations with the countries on our West (Afghanistan and USSR).
      Last edited by Ali_Syed; Sep 6th, 2012 at 07:32 AM.

    7. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by Silaaj View Post
      Another minor point. Training of extremists was ordered and begun by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. By the time Zia took over, it was too late to reverse course on this mistake, so he continued, and exacerbated it. Go back to Gulbadin Hikmatyar in the mid 70s.[/COLOR]
      You are right about Bhutto's support to Hekmatyar and Massoud in 1970's, I knew that Pakistan had a role in bringing down Daud regime(Afghan president because of the Pashtunistan issue) but I didnt know it was through these guys. This also lays to rest the conspiracy theories of Pakistan bungling to US pressure to create these monsters, either the creation was of our own free will or US was dictating the same to Bhutto.

      The Jamestown Foundation: Gulbuddin Hekmatyar: From Holy Warrior to Wanted Terrorist

      Gulbuddin Hekmatyar: From Holy Warrior to Wanted Terrorist

      Publication: Terrorism Monitor Volume: 4 Issue: 18
      September 21, 2006 12:12 PM Age: 6 yrs
      By: Omid Marzban

      During the last week of August, officials in the northern Afghan province of Kapisa announced the arrest of five accused terrorists related to Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, the former leader of Hezb-e-Islami Afghanistan (the Islamic Party of Afghanistan). Hekmatyar, a key figure in the Afghan jihad against the Soviet invasion in the 1980s, is now believed to be at his most powerful state since the U.S.-led invasion in 2001. A high-ranking provincial official from the northern Parwan province, who declined to be named, told The Jamestown Foundation that the most recent government investigation shows that Hekmatyar is leading the insurgency in the northern and eastern parts of Afghanistan, while Mullah Omar and his al-Qaeda ally, Osama bin Laden, operate in the south and the west. It is believed that these three leaders form a triangle that has been labeled the "Triangle of Terror." Since Hekmatyar forms one of these three points, it is important to understand his background.

      Hekmatyar's Background

      Born in 1948 in Imam Saheb district of northern Kunduz province, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar is a Kharoty Pashtun who comes from the Ghilzai confederation. His father, Ghulam Qader, who migrated to Kunduz, is originally from the central Ghazni province. Hekmatyar has two wives (both Afghans from his tribe), six daughters and three sons. According to Hamayon Jarir, Hekmatyar's son in-law, one of his wives lives in Iran and the other lives in Shamshatoo refugee camp in Peshawar together with their sons and daughters [1]. After graduating from Sher Khan high school in Kunduz in 1968, Hekmatyar joined the Mahtab Qala military school in Kabul. Due to his political activities, however, he was expelled from the school two years later. He speaks Dari (Farsi), Pashto, English, Urdu and Arabic.

      From 1970 to 1972, Hekmatyar attended the engineering department at Kabul University, but after being implicated in the murder of Saydal Sukhandan from the pro-China Shola-e-Jawedan Movement, he was jailed by the government of King Zahir Shah. As a high school student, Hekmatyar was a member of the communist People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan (PDPA) for four years. As a result of studying engineering at Kabul University, Hekmatyar's communist ideology was also affected by an extremist version of Islam, and he joined the Muslim Youths Movement (Nahzat-e-Jawanane Musalman). While at Kabul University, Hekmatyar's radicalism began to show its face: he was notorious for spraying acid on the university's female students [2].

      Hekmatyar's followers addressed him as Engineer Hekmatyar even though he was unable to complete his degree as a result of spending almost two years in prison. In 1974, when King Zahir Shah's government was overthrown by the king's cousin, Daoud Khan, in a military coup, Hekmatyar was freed from prison. He then left the country and took refuge in Pakistan's bordering city of Peshawar together with Burhanuddin Rabbani, Qazi Muhammad Amin Waqad and other jihadi leaders. The radical leaders continued to work as members of the Muslim Youths Movement; they later, however, divided into various factions and parties.

      Apparently, a failed uprising by jihadi leader Ahmad Shah Masoud of the Jamiat-e-Islami party in the Panjshir Valley against Daoud's regime in 1975 contributed to a split between Hekmatyar and Rabbani. It was, however, more Hekmatyar's desire for control that led to the disagreement between the two leaders. Waheed Mujda, who was a former member of Hezb-e-Islami, told The Jamestown Foundation that the main cause of Hekmatyar's clash with Rabbani was his idea of defeating the pro-Russian regime militarily, while Rabbani wanted to reach this goal politically. Strongly backed by the Pakistani government of Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, Hekmatyar established Hezb-e-Islami Afghanistan in 1976. Later in 1979, another clash between Hekmatyar and jihadi leader Mawlawi Khalis evenly divided Hezb-e-Islami into two factions. Khalis established another faction called Hezb-e-Islami's Khalis faction.

      Hekmatyar received most of the funding provided by Saudi Arabia, the United States and Pakistan to support the Afghan jihad against the Soviets; this made him the most well know and also the most controversial of the Pakistan-based mujahideen leaders. It was Hekmatyar who received anti-aircraft Stinger missiles from the U.S. government through Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI). "Hekmatyar's commanders in eastern Afghanistan were those who fired the first Stinger anti-aircraft missiles at Soviet warplanes," explained Mujda [3]. Indeed, it was Hezb-e-Islami Commander Abdul Ghaffar who hit the first Soviet helicopter gunship with an anti-aircraft Stinger missile in eastern Nangarhar province in September 1986 [4].

      "Hekmatyar was indeed the key character in collecting money from anti-Soviet factions and countries to make the war continue, but since he was so selfish and hungry for power most of the jihadi leaders did not like him, though they needed him," said Mujda. Mujda quoted Mawlawi Khalis as saying "I pray to god to let Hekmatyar live among us in Pakistan, but I don't want him with us in Afghanistan because he would not let anyone, other than himself, become the country's leader." Hekmatyar was known as an anti-American figure among the Afghan jihadi leaders; ironically, the United States, through the ISI, was his biggest financial and military supporter. Hekmatyar most clearly expressed his anti-American credentials when he refused to shake hands with President Ronald Reagan in 1985 under the roof of the White House. Hekmatyar came under great pressure from Pakistani leaders to meet with Reagan, but his argument was that being seen shaking hands with the U.S. president would strengthen the Soviet claim that the war was not a jihad and was instead a U.S.-led campaign to win the Cold War.

      Hekmatyar's power increased during the 1979-1988 war against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. His active Hezb-e-Islami intelligence service made him a hero among other fighters because his agents were able to penetrate the Afghan government; this allowed Hekmatyar to neutralize government initiatives. It was Hezb-e-Islami's intelligence service that gave Hekmatyar the power to resist against the Soviet's KGB and the Afghan government's security service, KHAD (Khedamat-e Etelea'at-e Dawlati).

      Hekmatyar's power later became a great threat to Dr. Mohammad Najibullah, who was elected as the president of Afghanistan in November 1986. Feeling the threat, Najibullah, the former chief of KHAD, invited Hekmatyar to join the government, but Hekmatyar rejected Najibullah's request even though Najibullah agreed to give him 95 percent control of the regime. The withdrawal of the last Soviet soldier from Afghanistan on February 15, 1989, based on a UN resolution, provided more opportunity for Hekmatyar and his allied jihadi leaders to expand the insurgency to the country's bigger cities. In 1992, Najibullah's regime was overthrown and Sebghatullah Mujadeddi, the leader of the Afghan National Liberation Front, took power based on an agreement with the mujahideen forces in Pakistan. Mujaddedi transferred power to Burhanuddin Rabbani, the leader of Jameat-e-Islami Afghanistan, after a two months term.

      It was during Rabbani's rule when the various jihadi parties and factions, including Hekmatyar's Hezb-e-Islami, began to fight for more power.

      Hekmatyar played a key role in provoking the multi-factional war in the country. In 1996, Hekmatyar joined President Rabbani and his defense minister, Ahmad Shah Masoud, and became the prime minister, but it was too late for him to be able to establish control over the country because Taliban fighters had already established control on the edges of Kabul. In September 1996, after being in power for three months, Hekmatyar sought exile in Iran and the Taliban took power in Kabul. After Hekmatyar warned his former ally Pakistan in 2001 not to support the U.S.-led war against the Taliban and al-Qaeda, and after his negative position toward the U.S.-backed Afghan government, Hekmatyar was expelled from Iran. Since then, Hekmatyar has been living in hideouts and has been targeted by U.S., Afghan and Pakistani security forces.

      His appearance on al-Jazeera television in May, and his pledge to fight foreign troops in Afghanistan and Iraq "under the banner of al-Qaeda," once again inspired fears among those who know Hekmatyar well.

      Hekmatyar's Effect on the Afghan Insurgency

      Hekmatyar is not blinded by a radical Islamic vision. For him, Islam is more about politics than it is about religion. In fact, this makes him more dangerous than Taliban leader Mullah Omar, who has surrounded himself with illiterate religious leaders. Hekmatyar, on the other hand, is more adept at military and political strategy. Additionally, Hekmatyar has led wars throughout Afghan territory and is completely familiar with the country's diverse geography, culture and beliefs.

      "Hekmatyar's ability of imposing his inspirations, especially on the youth, is unbelievable," says Qazi Muhammad Amin Waqad, a former member of Hezb-e-Islami's leadership council and Hekmatyar's former deputy. "During the past few years, Hekmatyar has found an absolutely new Hezb-e-Islami by absorbing new members—most of them youths—who may not even know me," added Waqad [5].

      Every week, Hekmatyar's Tanweer Weekly publishes in Shamshatoo refugee camp in Peshawar together with Estiqamat, a pro-Taliban magazine. In the August 10 issue of Tanweer, Hekmatyar again pledged to fight foreign troops in Afghanistan "till the last drop of blood moves in his body"—an expression always heard in Hekmatyar's speeches. By controlling this publication, Hekmatyar is able to recruit a tremendous amount of followers who are willing to die in order to kill a foreign soldier. Meanwhile, Hekmatyar uses his military experience to defeat the enemy (coalition and Afghan government soldiers), which for him are no different than the former Soviet army. In fact, among the three top insurgent leaders, who are located on each angle of the Triangle of Terror, Hekmatyar is considered the most powerful and the most dangerous for the current stability situation in Afghanistan.

      Notes

      1. Author interview with Hamayon Jarir, August 22, 2006, Kabul, Afghanistan.
      2. Author interview with Waheed Mujda, a former member of Hezb-e-Islami's Political Relations Department, August 25, 2006, Kabul, Afghanistan.
      3. Waheed Mujda, August 25, 2006.
      4. Ishtiaq Ahmad, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, an Afghan Trail from Jihad to Terrorism, Islamabad: 2004.
      5. Author interview with Qazi Muhammad Amin Waqad, former member of Hezb-e-Islami, August 20, 2006, Kabul, Afghanistan.

    8. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ali_Syed View Post
      As far as I know the extremist problem that we have in Pakistan is due to the Afghan war which began under Zias regime, if you have information on the contrary please share.
      Zia was guilty of continuing the mess. The mess was started back in 1974 by ZAB. Gen. Naseerullah Babar, under orders from ZAB, took money from the CIA and setup training camps for Hekmatyar and his army of terrorists, in order to fight Daoud Khan, the then Afghan ruler, who was outspoken in favor of Pashtunistan. Hekmatyar is the same guy who was famous for dousing women's faces with acid, and was wanted for several murders in Afghanistan. ZAB govt supported the Hezbe Islami run by Hekmatyar, in an effort to uproot the Afghan govt. This guy Hekmatyar was also known as the 'paraoon pidda' of the Afghan-Soviet war, in that he changed sides more often than he changed his clothes. ZAB supported him till the end. Even Zia continued with that support.

      And how is this related to Pakistan? The training camps run by Gen. Naseerullah Babar in the Afghan refugee camps, where most of our problems lie. Terrorism, kidnapping rings, beggar rings, drug smuggling, weapon proliferation...you name it.

      And it was in 1976 that ZAB ordered the ISI to setup a political wing......and today, we find the same PPP cursing the ISI for having a political wing
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      Quote Originally Posted by Silaaj View Post
      Zia was guilty of continuing the mess. The mess was started back in 1974 by ZAB. Gen. Naseerullah Babar, under orders from ZAB, took money from the CIA and setup training camps for Hekmatyar and his army of terrorists, in order to fight Daoud Khan, the then Afghan ruler, who was outspoken in favor of Pashtunistan. Hekmatyar is the same guy who was famous for dousing women's faces with acid, and was wanted for several murders in Afghanistan. ZAB govt supported the Hezbe Islami run by Hekmatyar, in an effort to uproot the Afghan govt. This guy Hekmatyar was also known as the 'paraoon pidda' of the Afghan-Soviet war, in that he changed sides more often than he changed his clothes. ZAB supported him till the end. Even Zia continued with that support.

      And how is this related to Pakistan? The training camps run by Gen. Naseerullah Babar in the Afghan refugee camps, where most of our problems lie. Terrorism, kidnapping rings, beggar rings, drug smuggling, weapon proliferation...you name it.

      And it was in 1976 that ZAB ordered the ISI to setup a political wing......and today, we find the same PPP cursing the ISI for having a political wing
      Its so strange that only after a few years of the Bangladesh debacle the government again started peddling in dangerous waters, Bhutto also launched an operation in Balochistan, started ISI's political cell, Dalai camps for opposition members, and the support to Hekmatyar and Masood. Oh well...This still does not absolve Zia of continuing with the same policies (on a bigger scale).
      Last edited by Ali_Syed; Sep 6th, 2012 at 08:34 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by ajazali View Post
      you can find many people who consider assassination of Liaqat Ali Khan an ordinary thing, but you should accept post #16
      Only dirty or cruel are fools can consider his assassination an ordinary thing . He was first PM of Pakistan appointed by the founder of the nation ,

      Quote Originally Posted by ajazali View Post
      sorry for inconvenience
      if we people of Pakistan are not comfort with army, why we have been electing such politicians who are comfort with army. Zardari is wise enough to deal with such evils. why zardari cant fire kayani or setup a new army structure? just because he has nothing good to do.
      If we people of Pakistan don’t agitate against military rule or monopoly, we endorse military rule. Responsible are you, the people of Pakistan.
      No one can remain Convenient with them except Shaukat Aziz type people .
      Have you got one ?
      It is a do or die time . Look at Baluchistan and KP

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      Quote Originally Posted by Anwer Pasha View Post
      Only dirty or cruel are fools can consider his assassination an ordinary thing . He was first PM of Pakistan appointed by the founder of the nation
      ANP a ruling party of KPK and most of kashmiris have no regard for Qaid
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      What all Matters is that we Won



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      Quote Originally Posted by waleedhbk View Post
      What all Matters is that we Won

      That is debatable

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      Quote Originally Posted by waleedhbk View Post
      What all Matters is that we Won

      There was no win at all . War was gone without any result . They stoppedus in Kashmir , We stopped them in Lahore due to braveness of our Jawans and young officers like one Shafqat Baluch .
      شفقت بلوچ نے محض ایک کمپنی (سو سے کم لوگ ) کے ساتھ دشمن کے ایک برگیڈ کو نو گھنٹے تک کھلے میدان میں روکے رکھا جس دوران عقب میں مورچے تیار ہوئے - اب شفقت اور اس کے جوانوں کی تعریف کریں یا ان کی عقل کا ماتم کریں جو جنگ کی بنیادی تیاری بھی نہ کر سکے

    16. #34
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      Sachaydino's Avatar
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      A meaning less war without any viable planning was started by General Ayub Khan, resulted in disaster after disaster for Pakistan. During war they lied to public that PA was winning, in fact they were losing and ultimately Ayub Khan was forced to declare ceasefire after 17 days because there were no arms left to fight with Indians. On the top of it Russia and Sam supported India rather than to Pakistan.

      People here perhaps will not believe that there was no war in former East Pakistan front. Bengali were ready to fight with Indians for Pakistan rather than supporting them like in 1971. Ayub Khan installed false cases against Shaikh Mujib who mobilized the masses against West Pakistani rule. Indra Gandhi took full advantage of this and took revenge from Pakistan for losses India suffered in 1965 war.

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      ehsan's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by sachaydino View Post
      A meaning less war without any viable planning was started by General Ayub Khan, resulted in disaster after disaster for Pakistan. During war they lied to public that PA was winning, in fact they were losing and ultimately Ayub Khan was forced to declare ceasefire after 17 days because there were no arms left to fight with Indians. On the top of it Russia and Sam supported India rather than to Pakistan.

      People here perhaps will not believe that there was no war in former East Pakistan front. Bengali were ready to fight with Indians for Pakistan rather than supporting them like in 1971. Ayub Khan installed false cases against Shaikh Mujib who mobilized the masses against West Pakistani rule. Indra Gandhi took full advantage of this and took revenge from Pakistan for losses India suffered in 1965 war.
      Highly incorrect facts here. The bengalis were standing shoulder to shoulder with west Pakistan at that time. The separation movement began afterwards. again to say we were losing is not correct. yes they were running our of ammunition but India DID not gain any significant land grab of West Pakistan and their main aim of capturing Lahore was well thwarted. Lets not distort facts just because of your hatred of the army.

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      Anwer Pasha's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ehsan View Post
      Highly incorrect facts here. The bengalis were standing shoulder to shoulder with west Pakistan at that time. The separation movement began afterwards. again to say we were losing is not correct. yes they were running our of ammunition but India DID not gain any significant land grab of West Pakistan and their main aim of capturing Lahore was well thwarted. Lets not distort facts just because of your hatred of the army.
      You are right here .



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