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    1. #1
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      Hii Im just wondering are castes important in Pakistan? Like when are looking Rishtas, does people still ask what caste are u etc.?
      I know that in Islam castes are forbidden, but like its long tradition in Pakistan right?

      And next question what are different castes? which factor(surname, ancestors, place etc.) defines that what caste are u?

      My friend said that she knows Jatt, Rajput,Gujjar,Qureshi, Sayed, Mirassi, and Malik castes, are these real? and what does these castes mean? And who does belong in these?

      Sorry about a lot questions, but im just curious to know more about Pakistan, because im born and raised in europe so sadly I dont know almost anything, and I just want to know more

    2. #2
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      I, and most NRP (non resident pakistanis) believe caste is irrelevant...but in Pakistan apparently it still matters.
      The grass ain't always greener on the other side, it's green where you water it.

    3. #3
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      Yes castes are still important but i think they were more important earlier on. Now people are somewhat flexible and are not as oppose to the idea of looking at other castes for potential prospects as they were earlier on. I personally don't see any wrong if someone/a family has a preference for their own caste but yes thinking of their caste as a superior is wrong.

      I would also preferably want to get married in the same caste but it's not a hard and fast rule for me. The reason i would want it though is that i know i am very particular about my of life and customs so i would do whatever is possible to minimise any such difference there can be in our setups. Between diff castes there is literally a diff way of life; eating, talking, living, etc. And i know myself, i m nt very adaptable and marriage in itself wl be such a big change so i wudnt want to cause my self more trouble so i would hope to find similiar minded people. So basically my preference is for these reasons however i wouldnt rank caste over education n family environment.

    4. #4
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      I dont believe that Caste system has any place in a Muslim society.

      However merit and distinction should be rewarded when in good and punished when in bad...

      I believe in divine rights and we are all given gifts from our Lord who decides what becomes of us however we are like the ones who can choose to use or misuse those divine gifts.
      Everyone knows "Jaws" was Chuck Norris's Goldfish, but not many folk know that "Godzilla" was Faris Udeen's pet Iguana.

    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jannat90 View Post

      My friend said that she knows Jatt, Rajput,Gujjar,Qureshi, Sayed, Mirassi, and Malik castes, are these real? and what does these castes mean? And who does belong in these?
      This is what I found :
      - Jat: Landowners; they add with their first name the name of "Chaudry", "Shima", (it is not systematic). One finds this same caste at Sikhs.

      - Rajput: Princes, but landowners in great majority. One finds this caste among Hindus.

      - Arian: The oral tradition said that they are descendants of the army of Ibn Qasim, whose troops had been created in Perse. They are originating in Perse and became with time landowners. One finds this caste only in Panjab. They add with their first name the name of "Chaudry", "Mian", "Mair", sometimes "Khan."

      - Sayed: Monk, their work also consists in making amulets, they are downward of the family of the Mohammad Prophet.

      - Qazi: The oral tradition said that they would go down from the Afghan soldiers. They would have since the beginning exerted the function of monk. Currently it is a caste land great landowners; it is very largely represented in the administration and the bureaucracy. They add with their first name the name of "Qureshi"..
      But in India Qureshi`s are low caste so I dont know So someone smarter can clear that

      - Gujar: Herdsmen, and often landowners.

      -- Mirassi: Travelling musicians, troubadours. "small" caste.


      I dont believe in caste system, its wrong, but even nowadays u get that question so often so u should know what caste are u.

    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jazz89 View Post
      - Rajput: Princes, but landowners in great majority. One finds this caste among Hindus.
      - Arian: The oral tradition said that they are descendants of the army of Ibn Qasim, whose troops had been created in Perse. They are originating in Perse and became with time landowners. One finds this caste only in Panjab. They add with their first name the name of "Chaudry", "Mian", "Mair", sometimes "Khan."
      Just to clarify there are many Mussalman Rajput clans too though obviously they are converts.

      And Khan is not of Perse origin it's Turkic and relates to chieftain or millitary ruler... most obvious examples being Ghengis Khan and Khan Asparuh before him.

      Chaudary is derived from Chauhan a clan of Hindu origins.

      Mian, Miar and Mirza are all Persian in origin though.

      However Mohammed bin Qasim is not the establisher of the Aryan's becuase he was Arab not Perisain. Aryans are most likley from the Iranian plataue and were made up of tribes who excelled in chariot warfare who overran India centuries/millenia? before the coming of Islam and are the proponents of the caste system.
      Everyone knows "Jaws" was Chuck Norris's Goldfish, but not many folk know that "Godzilla" was Faris Udeen's pet Iguana.

    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by Maham View Post
      Between diff castes there is literally a diff way of life; eating, talking, living, etc.
      Sorry but I just don't agree. I've never seen a real life example where people of same castes have similar styles of living, eating, etc. In my own family there is so much variance that it's unbelievable, and I'm talking about sagay mamoos and khalas. I believe the way of life is molded more by your upbringing and education rather than caste itself. People living in similar neighbourhoods, going to similar schools can have a similar lifestyle regardless of caste. It's more about where you grew up. I don't even know what my own caste's living style is supposed to be according to our predefined and generalised 'caste attributes'. All Sheikhs are not kanjoos and not all Butts love to eat.

    8. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by rizla86 View Post
      Sorry but I just don't agree. I've never seen a real life example where people of same castes have similar styles of living, eating, etc. In my own family there is so much variance that it's unbelievable, and I'm talking about sagay mamoos and khalas. I believe the way of life is molded more by your upbringing and education rather than caste itself. People living in similar neighbourhoods, going to similar schools can have a similar lifestyle regardless of caste. It's more about where you grew up. I don't even know what my own caste's living style is supposed to be according to our predefined and generalised 'caste attributes'. All Sheikhs are not kanjoos and not all Butts love to eat.

      A fair point in the 21st century... this probably reflects a good 60 percent of Pakistanis.

      I was probably among the last of the dinosaurs to be exposed to the horrible caste system in it's full intensity where you could literally have first dibs on everything becuase you were a Jagirdar or Nawaab so an so...

      however sadly in some rural areas it persists...
      Everyone knows "Jaws" was Chuck Norris's Goldfish, but not many folk know that "Godzilla" was Faris Udeen's pet Iguana.

    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by Faris Udeen View Post
      Just to clarify there are many Mussalman Rajput clans too though obviously they are converts.

      And Khan is not of Perse origin it's Turkic and relates to chieftain or millitary ruler... most obvious examples being Ghengis Khan and Khan Asparuh before him.

      Chaudary is derived from Chauhan a clan of Hindu origins.

      Mian, Miar and Mirza are all Persian in origin though.

      However Mohammed bin Qasim is not the establisher of the Aryan's becuase he was Arab not Perisain. Aryans are most likley from the Iranian plataue and were made up of tribes who excelled in chariot warfare who overran India centuries/millenia? before the coming of Islam and are the proponents of the caste system.
      Thats good that u clarified I just copy paste that, and I dont really know about castes. So what about Qureshi`s? I just got stuck with that, because no one seems to know about that caste. Do u know?

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by rizla86 View Post
      Sorry but I just don't agree. I've never seen a real life example where people of same castes have similar styles of living, eating, etc. In my own family there is so much variance that it's unbelievable, and I'm talking about sagay mamoos and khalas. I believe the way of life is molded more by your upbringing and education rather than caste itself. People living in similar neighbourhoods, going to similar schools can have a similar lifestyle regardless of caste. It's more about where you grew up. I don't even know what my own caste's living style is supposed to be according to our predefined and generalised 'caste attributes'. All Sheikhs are not kanjoos and not all Butts love to eat.
      well ur rite not everyone with same caste is similiar but most are. thats y i said its a preference not a rule for me atleast.

      each to their own

    11. #11
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      Well theres many different types of and definitions of Qureshi.

      The original definition is someone who can trace lineage to the Banu Quraish which was the original tribe of Makkah, with regards to India the mercenary king Hyder Ali of Deccan and his famous son Tipu sultan trace thier lieage to at least the Qureshi line while some argue they are decended from the Prophet Mohammed sallaho alayhi wassalam himself through Ali maula.. this is debatable but the fact that they are of Quraish origin is definitely true.

      The other Definition of Qureshi i know of is Persian in origin and relates to the equivalent of civil servants or officials... so perhaps this is the group that are a low caste in India as after the fall of the Raj civil servants became very much out of favour.

      there are many other definitions too and you can find them online.
      Everyone knows "Jaws" was Chuck Norris's Goldfish, but not many folk know that "Godzilla" was Faris Udeen's pet Iguana.

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by Faris Udeen View Post
      A fair point in the 21st century... this probably reflects a good 60 percent of Pakistanis.

      I was probably among the last of the dinosaurs to be exposed to the horrible caste system in it's full intensity where you could literally have first dibs on everything becuase you were a Jagirdar or Nawaab so an so...

      however sadly in some rural areas it persists...
      The idea of people from same castes being similar may hold true for lesser developed areas but in modern Lahore? I think not. Just to further my argument, an example from the other thread (courtesy redvelvet):

      Quote Originally Posted by redvelvet
      I'll give you another example. My uncle, in Pak, has two very bright daugthers. Maybe one of them was interested in studying medicine....but he didn't allow them to go outside of their city to get that education.........because of the fear that "laug batain karain ge ke larki ghar se bahar rahi hai....and GOd knows what she might have gotten up to." I find the mentality backwards.........I would also find it backwards if a desi living in the US felt the same way. Interestingly, my other uncle, who also lives in the same city (both of them are brothers)....had no issues with sending his daughter outside for education.
      Clearly the two brothers have a completely different way of thinking and that would in turn influence their respective lifestyles.

    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Maham View Post
      well ur rite not everyone with same caste is similiar but most are. thats y i said its a preference not a rule for me atleast.

      each to their own
      sorry didn't see your post there. I just think these days you can't even say most castes are similar anymore and the reason for this is that there are so many subdivisions within castes, it's pretty hard to find a perfect match.

    14. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by rizla86 View Post
      The idea of people from same castes being similar may hold true for lesser developed areas but in modern Lahore? I think not.

      Yeah i absolutely agree with you on that.... I was from the Pothowar region at least thats where I was born and it's pretty rural and caste defined but up north it got much worse...

      I doubt most of Pakistans like that though and besides it's probably down to the degree of influence different factors have over a persons lifestyle.
      Everyone knows "Jaws" was Chuck Norris's Goldfish, but not many folk know that "Godzilla" was Faris Udeen's pet Iguana.

    15. #15
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      I would rather you had called it clan and not caste. They are two different things I'd say. Islam is against the caste system but not against the clan system. There is no sin in associating yourself to a clan but there is sin in thinking that you are better than another person purely because of your clan. So there is a distinction.

      Anyway, to answer your question, the large number of Pakistanis do affliate themselves with a clan or 'baradari' as it is known in Urdu. But ofcourse a large number might be relative depending on where you go. I'm inclined to share that in my own family, we've been brought up to identify ourselves with our religion first, country second and clan finally. As in the importance/loyalties that we're supposed to express. So I'm a Muslim from Pakistan who happens to belong to a particular clan. I'm sure though there's a lot of families who do think of themselves as more elite or whatever. I personally don't believe we think of ourselves as above the law or the commoner or whatever. But we've always had a very strong clan identity. My immediate and extended family have a very strong clan presence and traditions.

      But ofcourse it all depends on your belief. I don't think I'm better than you because I'm a Rajput-Chauhan-Gujjar (As classification goes). But hey, I won't deny that otherwise, God Damn I Am So Awesome.

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      what maham said was applicable 30-40 years ago.......but no longer ..especially in the urban areas..

      but in rural areas it still is applicable somewhat...with increase in urbanisation it has decreased a lot..

      and about Arains.....Faris is mentioning Aryans (ancient indian race) and Jazz is talking about a Punjabi Caste.......so basically you two are talking about different peoples...

      Arains and many other claim lineage to arabs....

    17. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by NomiCA View Post
      what maham said was applicable 30-40 years ago.......but no longer ..especially in the urban areas..
      I don't think so.

    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by goddamniamsoawesome View Post
      I would rather you had called it clan and not caste. They are two different things I'd say. Islam is against the caste system but not against the clan system. There is no sin in associating yourself to a clan but there is sin in thinking that you are better than another person purely because of your clan. So there is a distinction.

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