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Feb 22nd, 2005, 07:01 PM #1----
NO OFFENCE is meant to anyone. its a question out of curiosity.
its been in my head since i have been watching the Ashura programs this Moharram on TV. and had a discussion with someone on this topic as well. they presented a very "wordly" and "statesman" view of waqa-e-Karbala (event of Karbala) and it really left me with some questions...
so...with ALL due respect :-)
i would be grateful if someone can please answer me based on ISLAMIC reasoning/logic/proof...jazakallahu khairan
we all know that Abu Lahab and Abu Jahal were BLOOD uncles of our Prophet (saw) .... yet they were evil men
this means that just because someone is related to our Prophet (saw) by blood does not in any way make them better...
Hazrat Ali (RA) has been glorified because of his personal actions. and that makes sense. b/c in Islam we are only and only accountable for our ACTIONS and thats what separates Muslims in their levels of Jannah. NOT their ancestry.
but I saw that most commentators on TV were trying to glorify Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) because he is the nawaasa-e-Rusool. grandson of the Prophet (SAW)
my question is....ISLAMICALLY, is that a correct justification for his glorification? Should his praise not be based on his actions? Though I can understand the emotional attachment Muslims have with the future generations of the Prophet (saw) and so we get emotional and sentimental and sympathetic about this...but... how does Hz Hussain (RA)'s being related to the Prophet (saw) give him a special darja/muqaam/level? Islamically in fact it should NOT, am i right or wrong?
Actually...I found it kind of a distraction from the main theme that the commentators gave so much emphasis to this that Hz Imam Hussain (RA) was our Prophet (saw)'s grandson...because that was not the point that should have been highlighted IMHO...The point to be highlighted is his ACTIONS and the CAUSE he stood for, not his ancectry, even IF it is from the Prophet (saw). am i right or wrong?
I hope I have not hurt someone's feelings by my post I apologize if this is the case. It was not my intention at all GS Rel forum is the only place easily accessible where so many learned people come and contribute openly (mashallah) who can give some convincing answers to these questions... so I decided to post here...
Feb 22nd, 2005, 07:27 PM #2----
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sensitive topic here, as a slight slip may offend the shiite over here.
I do believe that you glorify soemone, or respect someone on the basis of their actions and deeds, not their ancestry.
Feb 22nd, 2005, 07:30 PM #3----
I didn't say that we should not glorify Hz Imam Hussain (RA) naozobillah.. I mean... Ofcourse we should.... BUT...I'm talking about the JUSTIFICATION for that glorification.
Its not supposed to be the ancestry. according to what Islam teaches us. but b/c of his ACTIONS.
Thats what I mean.
I doubt that Shia brothers and sisters would be offended by this?
Feb 22nd, 2005, 07:32 PM #4----
Originally Posted by Irem
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Feb 22nd, 2005, 07:36 PM #5----
YES................................ hmmmmmmm :/
Faisal bhai...I don't know...please delete this thread if you think its inappropriate BTW...
Feb 22nd, 2005, 07:39 PM #6----
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There is definitely some rutba associated with the ahl e beht because of their association with the Prophet. If we look at the lineage of the Prophets, we see that often they came from the same family across generations. So blood does play a part, although the examples of Abu Jehal and Hazrat Nooh's son show that hereditry means nothing if you yourself are not worthy of it.
The prophet loved Imam Hussain very, very much (and remember, he died when Imam Hussain was still na baligh), and acting on 'qul la asalu aleikum ajran illal mawaddata bil qurba' where we treat qurba as the ahlebeyt, we revere them too.
Anyway heres some ahadith.. and theres quite a few that Im leaving out because I dont have an online link for them (from tirmizi, musnad ibn humbal waghera.. but browse through these references if u wish to trust the website on its authenticity http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/islam/0000070.php)
A person asked 'Abdullah bin 'Umar whether a Muslim could kill flies. I heard him saying (in reply). "The people of Iraq are asking about the killing of flies while they themselves murdered the son of the daughter of Allah's Apostle . The Prophet said, They (i.e. Hasan and Husain) are my two sweet basils in this world."
This hadith has been narrated. on the authority of Shu'ba with the same chain of transmitters. Amir b. Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyin appointed Sa'd as the Governor and said: What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat 'Ali), whereupon be said: It is because of three things which I remember Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camelg. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) say about 'Ali as he left behind hrin in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). 'All said to him: Allah's Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to him: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed:" Let us summon our children and your children." Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called 'Ali, Fitima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.
O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas.
this last one is particularly compelling:
'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped hitn under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying)
so his being family to the Prophet does hold significance, in addition to his actions.
Last edited by ravage; Feb 22nd, 2005 at 07:46 PM.Din-e-Mullah fee sabeelillah fasad (Allama Iqbal)
Feb 22nd, 2005, 07:46 PM #7----
Irem, are you saying that Prophet Mohammad is an ordinary man and lineage to him is no way a ticket to Janat? And he will be questioned like anyone else on the day of Qiyamat? He will be asked to justify his actions and other stuff?
Whats exactly there to ask? Does any of that make any difference? Who wants to know?
Feb 22nd, 2005, 07:51 PM #8----
I thought we were talking of the relatives of the Prophet (SAW)? Not the Prophet (SAW) himself?"Today in heaven they opened up a new chest dedicated to charity. It's name ?"
Feb 22nd, 2005, 07:53 PM #9----
Yeah, when you talk about Tacos, you need to keep Tortilla in mind too. It's called guilty b association.
Feb 22nd, 2005, 07:57 PM #10----
Im serious. We know about respect and Jannah and everything else to do with our Prophet (SAW) . We also know which of his companions or reltaives were pious and will be rewarded with Jannah.
What makes anyone think that "every single" person who claims to be related to the Prophet - really is. And secondly how does a relation help if they do not abide by what Islam has asked of them."Today in heaven they opened up a new chest dedicated to charity. It's name ?"
Feb 22nd, 2005, 08:39 PM #11Fayz----
Shias are only praising the family of prophet and nobody should have issues with that. I didnt approve of the way they express themselves but I am over that phase too. Its not my body nor my eyes.
As for the justification for glorifying Hazrat Imam Hassan based on his relation with prophet, it cant be considered wrong either. You can say they 'over do' it but I dont think there is such a term for a person for whom you hold strong emotional feelings .
Feb 22nd, 2005, 08:42 PM #12----
Originally Posted by ravage
Feb 22nd, 2005, 08:43 PM #13----
ager main lyari king hota to iss waqt kehta kay thora parh leti na to yeh sawal nahi ubharta
anyways ravage has posted some great ahadith from the famous sunni books..it shows u the importance of His (pbuh&up) Family (a)
there is also a famous hadith which both shia sunni agree and it goes something like this "Hussain (a.s.) is from ME (pbuh&up) and I (pbuh&up) am from Hussain (a.s.)
you are pretty smart..what do you think about this hadith? when He (pbuh&up) said Hussain (a.s.) is from me, well its natural He (a.s.) is the grandson of Prophet (pbuh&up) but then saying I (pbuh&up) am from Hussain (a.s.)..i think this should just explain your question
"abhi insaan ko baydaar to ho lainay do..har qom pukare gi hamaray hain Hussain (a.s.)"
Feb 22nd, 2005, 08:45 PM #14----
Ravvy (dekha kitna cool nick banaya hae mein ne tumhara ) kia haal chaal hae?
yaar OK...see, I get you completely.
>>> If we look at the lineage of the Prophets, we see that often they came from the same family across generations. <<<<
lekin hum sub shuru toh Adam (AS) se huay haen na?
so phir LINEAGE kia cheez hae?
its nothing if you think about it mere khayal se
The Prophet (saw) LOVED his grandsons. Fine.
Lekin, the whole point of Islam is that EACH human being is judged for THEIR actions. haena? Then how can being the descendent of the Prophet (SAW) be a plus point for anyone? Does that have any basis in the Quran? If so, show...?
I know bachpan se hum ye sab bhee sunte aye haen ke jis ne hifz kya ho ga woh 20 (forgot the exact number) logon ko jannat mein jagah dilva sakta hae and things like that. LEKIN think about it, kisi ko MUFT mein jannat kaise mil sakti hae yaar SIFARISH k thru???
khair...Allah BEHTER jaanta hae...
and btw...no hard feelings haan I mean, you know me I'm just asking betukay befuzool questions I'm not one of those people who are anti-shia or whatever. Mein toh khud guanhgaar insaan hoon deen se doore hoon boht zaada mujhay shia sunni ki fikar nai balkay apni fikar hae
Feb 22nd, 2005, 08:49 PM #15----
The Prophet (SAW) was PERFECT.
Lekin EVERYONE else WILL indeed be questioned. That's my understanding atleast. Allah knows better.
Feb 22nd, 2005, 09:02 PM #16----
M_Q yes I agree with you yaar.
Fayz I get you. Lekin my point is k agar Imam Hussain (RA) kee tareef kerni hae toh ye keh keh karnay kee tukk toh nai na banti ke he is nawasa-e-Rusool? I mean, is mein koi TAREEF kee baat toh nai hae na ke he was nawasa-e-Rusool? TAREEF kee baat toh ye hae na ke he made that SACRIFICE. Toh phir log is baat ko kyun ziada importance dete haen ke he is nawasa-e-Rusool? That actually goes against the spirit of Islam b/c Islamically no one is to be given credit simply because of ancestry. THAT was my point. I don't know if it makes sense? Actually you know, I don't know what my point is
luc Karbala is different from the death of the Prophet (saw) na. I mean, Karbala was a tragedy and Hz Imam Hussain (RA) made a SACRIFICE. So that's why mourning is involved in Karbala.
Sheraz bhai hmmm I c Thanks for sharing the hadith
acha please read my reply to Fayz above and tell me your thoughts on that also?
Feb 22nd, 2005, 09:09 PM #17----
Fayz remembered one more thing: Abu Jahal aur Abu Lahab se hamein ye example bhee toh milta hae na ke praising someone simply because they belong to the family of the Prophet (saw) is not justifiable?
Feb 22nd, 2005, 09:10 PM #18----
irem i know what you are saying but again Allah and Prophet (pbuh&up) of Allah is giving them the importance
"Verily Allah desires to remove all blemish from you, O Ahl al-Bayt, and to purify you with a perfect purification."
- Quran 33:33
When the above verse was revealed, Prophet Muhammad spread his cloak over Hazrat Ali, Lady Fatima, Hassan, and Hussain (peace be upon them all) and declared: "These are the members of my House, and Allah has purified them all."
i believe you can find this hadith in sahih muslim as well
i will post another Ayat in the next post