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    Results 1 to 13 of 13
    1. #1
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      no I am not talking about the band.

      But instead the importance it is given in the Indian Sub Continent. Does anyone know how can these three digits represent the first ayah of the Quran or is it just another inovation in religion.

      please do provide some legitmate sources if your argument is for 786.
      Last edited by omair_mal1k; Jun 28th, 2006 at 07:31 AM.
      23:1-11

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      Its an innovation. without doubt

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      There is nothing wrong with it. See the following.

      Source: http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...D=688&CATE=115

      Numeral 786 as Basmala
      Answered by Shaykh Gibril F Haddad

      Q. Is it not a reprehensible innovation to use ‘786’ instead of the full Basmala [=‘In the Name of Allah, Most Merciful and Compassionate’]? Some say that it also spells out Hare Krishna…

      A. As-Salamu `alaykum:

      To write 786 in lieu of the Basmala is permitted. The numeral 786 represents the abjad [letter-numeral] value of the Basmala [‘Bismillaah al-Rahmaan al-Raheem’]. If there is fear of disrespect for the Basmala if written in full then it may be preferable to use the number 786 instead. Occasional use of abjad numerals has long been current among the Ulema.

      See the table of "abjad" [letter-numeral] values at

      http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/arabic/glossary.html

      Objections to using 786 in the sense of the Basmala fall into three categories:

      1. The objection that the numeral 786 does not represent the Basmala. This is simple ignorance of abjad values. Such an objection carries no weight at all.

      2. The objection that using 786 is a novelty. This is correct but so is the spread of printed matter and worldwide literacy. The Sunna way in this regard is to find ways to curb the risks of heedlessness and disrespect to sacred things in print. The use of 786 is one such way. A better one is to write the Arabic letter Ba' to stand for the Basmala or to write: Bismihi Ta`ala = "In his Name, Most High."

      An important point of principles. The use of abjad numerals was accepted by the Ulema of Islam East and West long ago and therefore cannot be called a bid`a except by those constantly and/or essentially at odds with the Umma's understanding and practice i.e. the bid`a sects themselves. They can be exposed by their own key statements, such as "Was the verse, 'Today I completed your religion for you', revealed to the Prophet (pbuh) or to the so-called scholars of our age who are all bent to amend the Divine principles?"

      3. The objection that it is potential kufr because 786 also happens to stand for the abjad value of "Hare Krishna" if Arabized as Ha'-Ra'-Ya'-Kaf-Ra'-Shin-Nun-Alif. This is a grave charge and false on many fronts or rather backsides to boot. It is ironic that this objection was published in a country that has allowed the name of their king to be engraved on the very door of the Ka`ba in full letters, yet they do not raise a peep against such an act! More importantly:

      (i) False witness against fellow Muslims, chronic suspicion of fellow Muslims, and diseased pride are all among the Kaba'ir. They must be avoided at all cost and such an accusation should have never seen the light of day nor be given the time of day. Instead, it is being reposted and circulated!

      (ii) Those that leveled these false accusations of potential kufr and bid`a against Muslims should repent, as the accusations have now returned upon them. The same applies to the propagators. Allah Most High has placed the Hurma or sanctity of a Muslim too high to allow such reckless accusations to be thrown about without consequences.

      (iii) The correct abjad value of Hare Krishna is NOT 786 but 776. There is no long Ya at the end of Hare but a brief vowel that does not stand for a letter. The result is:

      NOT h-5, r-200, i-10, k-20, r-200, sh-300, n-50, a-1 = Aggregate 786

      BUT h-5, r-200, k-20, r-200, sh-300, n-50, a-1 = Aggregate 776

      (iv) The numeral 786 might apply to any number of names or phrases. However, it is used by Muslims only and in the Basmala sense only. Other senses are precluded from the usage of those Muslims. A pseudo-censor comes along and claims that other senses are not precluded: such a false judge is ignoring the fundamental principles that

      {Deeds Count Only According to Intentions}

      and that

      {The Lawful Is Crystal Clear and the Unlawful is Crystal Clear}.

      He has put aside half of the Shari`a by ignoring these two principles. Who will possibly follow him except those Allah misguides?

      The reverse is true also: even if 786 meant only ‘Bismillaah al-Rahmaan al-Raheem’ and nothing else, it would still be meaningless to use it without the intention of Basmala.

      (v) Suppose 786 does stand for Hare Krishna, which means "Holy Krishna." There is nothing in Islam - and Allah knows best - that precludes the possibility that Krishna was a Prophet of Islam. "We find popular Muslim poets in India, such as Sayid Sultan, writing poems about Krishna as a Prophet. There is no final theological proof that he was one, but the assumption is nonetheless not in violation of the Koran" (Abd al-Hakim Murad, "British and Muslim?" Based on a lecture given to a conference of British converts on September 17 1997). Writing the name of a Prophet as one's letterhead can never be "infidelity."

      Someone had requested a response on this issue two years ago on the mail-list msa-ec. The lengthiness of this response is due to the sad fact that extremism has shifted the issue from a one-line ruling of secondary importance (Use of the numeral 786 in lieu of Basmala offensive or permitted? - Permitted) to the grave disease of takfir and tabdi`, and Allah is our help.

      {And speak not, concerning that which your own tongues qualify (as clean or unclean), the falsehood: "This is lawful, and this is forbidden," so that ye invent a lie against Allah. Lo! those who invent a lie against Allah will not succeed} (16:116).

      Hajj Gibril
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      GF Haddad

    4. #4
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      681 32 21 421 42 14 934!!!!

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      hmmmmmmmm

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      ramyssysIX: Brother, a nice, informative and comprehensive mail. Thanks.

      Actually written form just represents what one understands and reads the sound it makes. If a person does not know a particular script, symbol or sign than to read or know the sound it makes is impossible for such person.

      Just imagine why we read Assalaamu alaikum and with same sound? Because we know that the sound of Assalaamu alaikum is same as what sound of makes. Those who know Arabic script and do not know roman script but are also ignorant of roman script may not agree that Assalaamu alaikum should be read or should make same sound as .

      These days there are many people who do not know a thing but like to criticize others according to their knowledge. They are critical of everything other then their own lack of intelligence or understanding.

      It is same to do with the symbol 786. Those who know read 786 as or Bismillah-ur-Rahmaan-nur-Raheem. For these people with that knowledge, 786 sounds same as that sounds same as Bismillah-ur-Rahmaan-nur-Raheem. So when they write 786, they mean to write Bismillah-ur-Rahmaan-nur-Raheem and they read 786 with same sound as what they read Bismillah-ur-Rahmaan-nur-Raheem.

      But for those who do not know what 786 should sound, they would read 786 as seven hundred and eighty six without realizing that there is a script that reads 786 as Bismillah-ur-rahmaan-nur-raheem.

      There are many such things that one knows while others are ignorant of it. For instance, number ‘FF’ is same as 255 but it is 255 only for those who knows that (Hexadecimal numbering), as for those who are ignorant of that, it is two Fs from roman alphabets, that is FF.

      Same to do with letter ‘K’ as 1000. Thus when a person write 3K it means 3000. A person, ignorant of this fact would say that 3K is not 3000 but it is 3K or KKK and that represents a racial party in USA Ku-Klux-Klan. What can one do with such people?

      Problem only arises when persons ignorant of such knowledge wants to impose their understanding over others by insisting that ‘K’ is not 1000 so do not use it. Similarly, such person not knowing what 786 written at start of a page should sound, start trying to impose their understanding over those that do know what it sounds.
      Last edited by Sa1eem; Jun 27th, 2006 at 09:33 PM.

    7. #7
      The unReal king
      Bu Abdullah

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      ^ so if 786 does really mean bismillah, then throwing a paper that says 786 is equal in disrespect to throwing away a bismillah written in arabic....

      so whats the point of using it then????
      Both Halal & Haram r evident but between them r doubtful things, most ppl have no knowledge about them. So whoever saves himself from suspicious things saves his religion & honor, & whoever indulges in suspicious things indulges in Haram.

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      Innovation of 786 :

      In the Name of Allah

      Fozail Aqdas Ghazali

      The innovation of writing “786” at the top of a document or a letter replacing the holy words of Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem has, unfortunately, been a common practice for a long time by the majority of the Ummah, specially by the Urdu speaking Muslims in the Indian subcontinent.
      Apart from common folk, the scholars also pay no attention to it and to avoid disrespect to the holy words they often use it with the intention of seeking the Divine blessings through this number. They believe it a “correct” and “better” way to follow the Prophet’s command to begin a work in the name of Allah. They have even started writing this number at the top of their houses, offices and business establishments, etc. Unfortunately, this tradition is gradually being passed on from one generation to another.
      But, do we see this number in place of the holy words of Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem in the holy Qur’an? Or, can we write it there as well? Can we remove these holy words from the top of Surah Fatiha and replace it with the number 786? Obviously not.
      If we study the holy Qur’an, we see it carries the holy words in a letter from Prophet Sulaiman (Pbuh) to the Queen of
      Sheeba-Bilqis - who was an infidel at that time. Even Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh), in his letters to different non-Muslims kings, Knights, and heads of states and governments, used the holy words at the top. Therefore, whosoever uses 786 with the intention of obtaining the Divine blessings is a misguided person and any attempt to justify it is based on ignorance, innovation or blind following of the practices of his ancestors.
      Islam’s foundation is laid on the belief in Tauhid (Oneness of God). If we associate anyone with Allah’s exalted names orally or practically, we would be committing blasphemy which is an unpardonable sin.
      The holy Qur’an warns us: “One who finds a rival against Allah, Allah will never allow him to enter paradise, and his abode is hell.”
      The letters by Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) to non-Muslim kings and chiefs bore the holy words Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem. This was also the case of his noble companions. Did the Prophet (Pbuh) and his companions respect the holy words less than us?
      Was the verse, “Today I have completed your religion for you”, revealed to the Prophet (Pbuh), or to the so called scholars of our age, who seem to be bent on amending Divine principles and traditions deliberately or inadvertently?
      Now, when it became clear that “786” has no significance, whatsoever, in the holy Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (Pbuh), it is obviously an innovation and goes against the Divine doctrine of “Obey Allah and His Prophet.”
      Similarly, some Muslims replace Allah’s name by the number “786” and the Prophet’s name by “92”. But if one may ask “ If the number “420” is used against somebody’s name and he is called “Mr 420”, would he take it lying down?
      Calling someone by a nick name is a sin. Allah says; “Do not call one another by nick names.” If Allah prohibits the use of nick names for fellow human beings, how can He allow the use of such insulting replacement number for Himself and His noble Prophet (Pbuh)?
      Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem carries great significance in the holy Qur’an and the Sunnah, and the Muslims are ordered not to begin any work but in the name of Allah; not in the number of “786”, or any other substitution.
      http://www.islamicvoice.com/september.99/zakir.htm

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      Quote Originally Posted by hareem01
      Innovation of 786 :

      In the Name of Allah

      Fozail Aqdas Ghazali

      The innovation of writing “786” at the top of a document or a letter replacing the holy words of Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem has, unfortunately, been a common practice for a long time by the majority of the Ummah, specially by the Urdu speaking Muslims in the Indian subcontinent.
      Apart from common folk, the scholars also pay no attention to it and to avoid disrespect to the holy words they often use it with the intention of seeking the Divine blessings through this number. They believe it a “correct” and “better” way to follow the Prophet’s command to begin a work in the name of Allah. They have even started writing this number at the top of their houses, offices and business establishments, etc. Unfortunately, this tradition is gradually being passed on from one generation to another.
      But, do we see this number in place of the holy words of Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem in the holy Qur’an? Or, can we write it there as well? Can we remove these holy words from the top of Surah Fatiha and replace it with the number 786? Obviously not.
      If we study the holy Qur’an, we see it carries the holy words in a letter from Prophet Sulaiman (Pbuh) to the Queen of
      Sheeba-Bilqis - who was an infidel at that time. Even Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh), in his letters to different non-Muslims kings, Knights, and heads of states and governments, used the holy words at the top. Therefore, whosoever uses 786 with the intention of obtaining the Divine blessings is a misguided person and any attempt to justify it is based on ignorance, innovation or blind following of the practices of his ancestors.
      Islam’s foundation is laid on the belief in Tauhid (Oneness of God). If we associate anyone with Allah’s exalted names orally or practically, we would be committing blasphemy which is an unpardonable sin.
      The holy Qur’an warns us: “One who finds a rival against Allah, Allah will never allow him to enter paradise, and his abode is hell.”
      The letters by Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) to non-Muslim kings and chiefs bore the holy words Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem. This was also the case of his noble companions. Did the Prophet (Pbuh) and his companions respect the holy words less than us?
      Was the verse, “Today I have completed your religion for you”, revealed to the Prophet (Pbuh), or to the so called scholars of our age, who seem to be bent on amending Divine principles and traditions deliberately or inadvertently?
      Now, when it became clear that “786” has no significance, whatsoever, in the holy Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (Pbuh), it is obviously an innovation and goes against the Divine doctrine of “Obey Allah and His Prophet.”
      Similarly, some Muslims replace Allah’s name by the number “786” and the Prophet’s name by “92”. But if one may ask “ If the number “420” is used against somebody’s name and he is called “Mr 420”, would he take it lying down?
      Calling someone by a nick name is a sin. Allah says; “Do not call one another by nick names.” If Allah prohibits the use of nick names for fellow human beings, how can He allow the use of such insulting replacement number for Himself and His noble Prophet (Pbuh)?
      Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem carries great significance in the holy Qur’an and the Sunnah, and the Muslims are ordered not to begin any work but in the name of Allah; not in the number of “786”, or any other substitution.
      http://www.islamicvoice.com/september.99/zakir.htm
      Good one. Buddy

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      Hareem01, thanks for the other side of the opinion. I respect it as it has been formed out of respect for Allah and His words, and for sticking to the followership of the Prophet :saw:.

      However, please do not forget the following about the reference I posted:

      Although it represents bismillah in Abjad, no one should think that Bismillah should be replaced with 786. Arabic is the language of choice in Jannah and it can no way be replaced by any other language. However, it just means that it is ok to use 786 when one feels the need. Making a trend in society to use '786' every where (like car registeration plates etc.) is a totally different phenomenon and is an exaggarated behaviour on part of people in my opinion.

      Also, in regards to brother Saleem's post, I would like to point out that the internet excessively uses English transliteration of Quranic text. For all the guys against writing 786, don't you think that is a much much bigger issue?

      Wallahu' Alam

    11. #11
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      <------
      Last edited by Afridi786; Jun 28th, 2006 at 02:15 PM.
      If you look in the mirror and don't like what you see you can find out first hand what it's like to be me.

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      786 is the numerical representation of "Bismillahirrahamaanirraheem" has no religious or Islaamic significance.
      The numerals 786 or any other numerals in no way represent 'Bismillaah al-Rahmaan al-Raheem' or other Surahs of the noble Qur'ân and is not the Sunnah either.
      CAN NUMBER 786 REPLACE THE HOLY NAME OF GOD ?
      Allaah say in Qur'ân "Verily, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'ân in order that you may understand" (12:2).
      We are instructed to recite the Qur'an Majeed, as can be seen from the following verses: "And (it is) a Qur'ân which We have divided (into parts), in order that you might recite it to men at intervals. And We have revealed it by stages. (in 23 years)." (17:106); "....So RECITE as much of the Qur'ân as may be easy (for you),..." (73:20).
      Now would one recite the Qur'an if it is reduced to numbers? As an example, we shall reduce the Surah Fatihah to numerical figures for the benefit of the reader.
      Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Raheem............................................ ... 787
      Al-humdolillaahir rubbuaalamin...................................... ......... 632
      Ar-Rahmaan-ur-Raheem............................................ ........... 618
      Malikay yawm-midhdeen.......................................... ............ 242
      Eeyya ka Na' bo-du Wa eeyya ka nastha'een........................... 836
      Ah'daynas-sira thalmustaqeem...........and in NO WAY sacred. It is a conspiracy against the Holy Book of Allaah.
      This old game of numbers was practised by the ancient Egyptians, as did many other civilisations. Islaam came to ELIMINATE ALL such superstitions, mysteries and numerological mumbo-jumbo. However, Muslims are still enslaved to the number game, and think that 786 represents BISMILLAAHIR RAHMAANIR RAHEEM.
      More astonishing is that fact that '786' is an aggregation of the numbers of Hindu 'Lord Hari Krishna'.
      H(a)iri Kr(i)shna
      h-5, r-200, r-10, k-20, r-200, sh-300, n-50, a-1 = Aggregate of 786, Thus, the aggregate number of these letters (Hari Krishna) equals 786. This is also the case of 'Bismillaah al-Rahmaan al-Raheem'. Therefore, it is necessary to avoid using this number to avoid the danger of being indulging in infidelity.
      Islaam's foundation is laid on the belief in Tawheed (oneness of God). If we associate anyone with Allaah's exalted names orally or practically, we would be committing infidelity which is an unpardonable sin. The Qur'ân warns us, one who finds a rival against Allaah, Allaah will never allow him to enter paradise, and his abode is the hell. The letters by the Prophet (pbuh) to non-Muslim Kings and chiefs bear the holy words 'Bismillaah al-Rahmaan al-Raheem'. This was also the case of his noble companions. Did the Prophet (pbuh) and his companions respect the Holy Words less than we do? Was the verse, 'Today I completed your religion for you', revealed to the Prophet (pbuh) or to the so called scholars of our age who are all bent to amend the Divine principles.
      Now, when it became known that '786' is written in place of Hindu, 'Lord Krishna', and has no significance in the Holy Qur'ân and Sunnah, it is obviously an innovation and goes against the Divine doctrine of 'Obey Allaah and His Prophet'.
      Similarly, some Muslims replace Allaah's name by the number '66' and the Prophet's name by '92'. But if one ask, the number '420' is used against somebody's name and he is called '420'. Can he bear such an insult?
      http://www.allaahuakbar.net/misconceptions/index.htm
      Last edited by yo_wasim; Jun 28th, 2006 at 03:17 PM.

    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Afridi786
      <------
      Afridi, depending on the outcome of this thread you might have to change your name. hehe
      To repeat what others have said, requires education, to challenge it, requires brains.
      - Mary Pettibone Poole