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    1. #1
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      Lets say if we were at the times of siffin and nehrwaan, whom would you guys fight for, i mean u cant just call it a confusion at least not back then so, lets say u have to go on a war, would u rather fight against Imam Ali a.s or mavia ?
      please be specific
      wasalam
      Aqeel
      MARAY ALLAH MAREE IZZAT KAI LIYAY YEHI KAFI HAI KAI MAIN TAIRA BANDA HOON OOR MARAY FAKHAR KAI LIYAY YEHE KAFIHAI KAI TOU MAIRA PURWARDIGAAR. TOU WAISA HAIN JAISA MAIN CHAHTA HOO ..PUSS TOU MUJH KO WAISA BANA DAY JAISAY TOU CHAHTA HAI.

    2. #2
      TLK
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      And the reason you are asking this question is ?
      My father believed that if the world found out who I really was they'd reject me out of fear.

    3. #3
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      I was ready for this type of response where asnwer wont be straight up !
      If someone asks me who wud u I be supporting in Karabal Hussain a.s or yazid, i wud Answer Hussain a.s i think most of u wud without askin "and the reason u r askin is" so i wana know the reason why cant u just pick one here as well
      So plz be specfic
      MARAY ALLAH MAREE IZZAT KAI LIYAY YEHI KAFI HAI KAI MAIN TAIRA BANDA HOON OOR MARAY FAKHAR KAI LIYAY YEHE KAFIHAI KAI TOU MAIRA PURWARDIGAAR. TOU WAISA HAIN JAISA MAIN CHAHTA HOO ..PUSS TOU MUJH KO WAISA BANA DAY JAISAY TOU CHAHTA HAI.

    4. #4
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      Because I just dont know the history enough, and no one does

      But both sides were on haq, they had their justifications, so you need to be in that time for you to know which side you would be at

      and BTW, there were some sahabas who decided to stay impartial.

      I know, unfortunately where this thread is going to go, that is why I asked you the motive, cause to be honest, maybe this was not your intention, but this seems to a normal person, another argument starting between Shia and Sunni.

      So let me ask you this then, in the war between Hazrat Ayesha and Hazrat Ali, which side would you be at?
      My father believed that if the world found out who I really was they'd reject me out of fear.

    5. #5
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      i dont think its a shia-sunni issue at all .....
      i like the "both sides were on haq " comment lol

    6. #6
      TLK
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      Quote Originally Posted by Das Reich View Post
      i dont think its a shia-sunni issue at all .....
      Lets sincerly hope that Das ...
      My father believed that if the world found out who I really was they'd reject me out of fear.

    7. #7
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      Salaam-o-Alaikum,

      I've just posted a very relevant and on-topic video on the events of Karbala.

      Check video section
      "Pakistan Affairs is sort of like the Sun. Going there will help absorb the much needed vitamin for the skin and make the skin thicker to other criticisms the life throws your way. Stay there too long, much like staying in the sun for a long period and you risk getting a sunburn or worse skin cancer if you're a chronic sun bather." Endorsed by Ess.

    8. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by TLK View Post
      Because I just dont know the history enough, and no one does

      But both sides were on haq, they had their justifications, so you need to be in that time for you to know which side you would be at

      and BTW, there were some sahabas who decided to stay impartial.

      I know, unfortunately where this thread is going to go, that is why I asked you the motive, cause to be honest, maybe this was not your intention, but this seems to a normal person, another argument starting between Shia and Sunni.

      So let me ask you this then, in the war between Hazrat Ayesha and Hazrat Ali, which side would you be at?
      Of course Hazrat ALi a.s when Quran orders ayesha to stay home she has no right to leave and fight anyone ! Quran took it away from all azwaj-e-Rasool s.a.w

      I dunno how come people feel so unsecure abt shia/ sunni discussions, Discussions are better than wars we should promote em ,,,,, and doesnt matter From namaz to Darood to belives to Rasalat Imamat and Khilafat wat ever u talk abt there is a mostly if not always a little difference in sunni shia belvies so we just learn to live with that.
      MARAY ALLAH MAREE IZZAT KAI LIYAY YEHI KAFI HAI KAI MAIN TAIRA BANDA HOON OOR MARAY FAKHAR KAI LIYAY YEHE KAFIHAI KAI TOU MAIRA PURWARDIGAAR. TOU WAISA HAIN JAISA MAIN CHAHTA HOO ..PUSS TOU MUJH KO WAISA BANA DAY JAISAY TOU CHAHTA HAI.

    9. #9
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      Whats the relevance of this question today?
      The war happened 1400 years ago. What do you want to achieve from these questions?
      Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment.

    10. #10
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      The intent behind this thread doesn't seem right.
      "Lets not dwell into matters which have already been dealt with 1400 years ago. Go read for yourself, and understand it yourself." Sh. Hamza Yusuf

    11. #11
      The unReal king
      Bu Abdullah

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      remain neutral....
      that was the best choice maed by the important sahabas at the time....

      ali (ra) was forced into the war....
      if he had a choice, he too wud have refrained to fight against fellow muslims....

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
      Whats the relevance of this question today?
      The war happened 1400 years ago. What do you want to achieve from these questions?
      Most of our Islamic questions are answered from Quran which was revelead 1400 years ago or from sunnat of Rasool s.a.w which is 1400 yrs old .... We talk abt Adam a.s and hawa ... Musa a.s and Ferro, Isa a.s and Jinabe- Mariam, stories of Noah A.s and stories of Ibarhim a.s, Islamil a.s and the sheep these are stories from 2005, They are thousands of years old stories that we discuss how come askin a 1400 yrs old question irrelvant when our religion is 1400 yrs old !
      We cant answer most of islamic questions if not all without going back to history ... and closer it is 1400 yrs old ... Times of Propphet s.a.w more it is appritiated ! soo time isnt a good excuse

      Quote Originally Posted by armughal View Post
      remain neutral....
      that was the best choice maed by the important sahabas at the time....

      ali (ra) was forced into the war....
      if he had a choice, he too wud have refrained to fight against fellow muslims....
      cant agree more...... but what abt mavia y didnt he refrain to fight ? and when he didnt and Imam was forced into war ... according to u muslims shld have just stayed neutral and let him fight alone ?
      Last edited by aqeel123; Mar 4th, 2008 at 01:14 PM.
      MARAY ALLAH MAREE IZZAT KAI LIYAY YEHI KAFI HAI KAI MAIN TAIRA BANDA HOON OOR MARAY FAKHAR KAI LIYAY YEHE KAFIHAI KAI TOU MAIRA PURWARDIGAAR. TOU WAISA HAIN JAISA MAIN CHAHTA HOO ..PUSS TOU MUJH KO WAISA BANA DAY JAISAY TOU CHAHTA HAI.

    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Crescent_ View Post
      The intent behind this thread doesn't seem right.
      yea i wana get people together on this thread and then sucide bomb all !
      MARAY ALLAH MAREE IZZAT KAI LIYAY YEHI KAFI HAI KAI MAIN TAIRA BANDA HOON OOR MARAY FAKHAR KAI LIYAY YEHE KAFIHAI KAI TOU MAIRA PURWARDIGAAR. TOU WAISA HAIN JAISA MAIN CHAHTA HOO ..PUSS TOU MUJH KO WAISA BANA DAY JAISAY TOU CHAHTA HAI.

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      the name is Muawiyah (Radiallahanhu)
      "The Baptism of God, and who can Baptize better than God?" (2:138)

    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by aqeel123 View Post
      Most of our Islamic questions are answered from Quran which was revelead 1400 years ago or from sunnat of Rasool s.a.w which is 1400 yrs old .... We talk abt Adam a.s and hawa ... Musa a.s and Ferro, Isa a.s and Jinabe- Mariam, stories of Noah A.s and stories of Ibarhim a.s, Islamil a.s and the sheep these are stories from 2005, They are thousands of years old stories that we discuss how come askin a 1400 yrs old question irrelvant when our religion is 1400 yrs old !
      We cant answer most of islamic questions if not all without going back to history ... and closer it is 1400 yrs old ... Times of Propphet s.a.w more it is appritiated ! soo time isnt a good excuse


      So why don't you enlighten us, how is this question relevant today?
      Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment.

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      Quote Originally Posted by armughal View Post
      remain neutral....
      that was the best choice maed by the important sahabas at the time....
      I agree with that.

    17. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by aqeel123 View Post


      Lets say if we were at the times of siffin and nehrwaan, whom would you guys fight for, i mean u cant just call it a confusion at least not back then so, lets say u have to go on a war, would u rather fight against Imam Ali a.s or mavia ?
      please be specific
      wasalam
      Aqeel
      Aqeel we meet again

      You must know that Sunnis do not take anyone but Allah (swt) to be absolutely infallible. All the Prophets (peace and blessings be upon them all) are pure and innocent and infallible in delivering the message of Allah (swt).

      Everyone one else and including the members of Ahlul Bayt and Sahabah (may Allah (swt) be pleased with them all) are fallible. Of course they are best of the Believers and having earned Allah (swt)’s pleasure. This is what the Quran says.

      All the Sunnis take Hazrat Ali (ra) as the forth righteous Khalif.

      The Battle of Siffin was a big Fitnah in the Ummah of Islam.

      It was fight between the Believers. A big No! No!

      So the best option is to keep as far as possible from fitnah.

      Most of the prominent Companions (may Allah (swt) be pleased with them all) of the Prophet (saw) kept aloof from this fitnah.

      So first choice I would like among these noble souls.

      Position of Hz. Ali (ra) was more righteous than that of his opponents.

      Position of his opponents was incorrect due to erroneous ijtihad. But they were sincere in their efforts and stance.

      You must know that a pious Khalifah (Hz. Uthman Bin Affan (ra)) who having the honour of being son-in-law of the Prophet (saw) twice was brutally murdered by the thugs.

      Even though Hz. Ali (ra)’s position was more righteous that doesn’t mean that all the people who were in his camp were pious lot.

      In Hz. Ali (ra)’s camp there were scoundrels and thugs and fitnah mongers who had murdered the pious fourth Khalifah.

      So my second choice would be to be from Hz. Ali (ra)’s camp but NOT being from his supporters who time and again let him down and he was ever rebuking and cursing them – they were the scum of the earth

      Read the following comments of Hz. Ali (ra) about his own supporters. The sermon are from Nahjul Balagha

      Sermon 34

      Woe to you. I am tired of rebuking you. Do you accept this worldly life in place of the next life? Or disgrace in place of dignity? When I invite you to fight your enemy your eyes revolve as though you are in the clutches of death, and in the senselessness of last moments. My pleadings are not understood by you and you remain stunned. It is as though your hearts are affected with madness so that you do not understand.

      You have lost my confidence for good. Neither are you a support for me to lean upon, nor a means to honour and victory. Your example is that of the camels whose protector has disappeared, so that if they are collected from one side they disperse away from the other side.

      By Allah, how bad are you for igniting flames of war. You are intrigued against but do not intrigue (against the enemy). Your boundaries are decreasing but you do not get enraged over it. Those against you do not sleep but you are unmindful. By Allah, those who leave matters one for the other are subdued.

      By Allah, I believed about you that if battle rages and death hovers around you, you will cut away from the son of Abi Talib like the severing of head from the trunk. By Allah, he who makes it possible for his adversary to so overpower him as to remove the flesh (from his bones), crush his bones and cut his skin into pieces, then it means that his helplessness is great and his heart surrounded within the sides of his chest is weak.

      You may become like this if you wish. But for me, before I allow it I shall use my sharp edged swords of al-Mushrafiyyah which would cut as under the bones of the head and fly away arms and feet. Thereafter, Allah will do whatever He wills.

      O' people, I have a right over you and you have a right over me. As for your right over me, that is to counsel you, to pay you your dues fully, to teach you that you may not remain ignorant and instruct you in behaviourism that you may act upon. As for my right over you, it is fulfilment of (the obligation of) allegiance, well-wishing in presence or in absence, response when I call you and obedience when I order you.

      Sermon 68

      How long shall I accord you consideration that is accorded to camels with hollow hump, or to worn clothes which when stitched on one side give way on the other. Whenever a vanguard force of Syria (ash-Sham) hovers over you, everyone of you shuts his door and hides himself like the lizard in its hole or a badger it its den.

      By Allah, he whom people like you support must suffer disgrace and he who throws arrows with your support is as if he throws arrows that are broken both at head and tail. By Allah, within the courtyard you are quite numerous but under the banner you are only a few.

      Certainly, I know what can improve you and how your crookedness can be straightened. But I shall not improve your condition by marring myself. Allah may disgrace your faces and destroy you. You do not understand the right as you understand the wrong and do not crush the wrong as you crush the right.

      Sermon 96

      Although Allah gives time to the oppressor, His catch would not spare him. Allah watches him on the passage of his way and the position of that which suffocates the throats.

      By Allah in Whose power my life lies, these people (Mu`awiyah and his men) will overcome you not because they have a better right than you but because of their hastening towards the wrong with their leader and your slowness about my right (to be followed). People are afraid of the oppression of their rulers while I fear the oppression of my subjects.

      I called you for war but you did not come. I warned you but you did not listen. I called you secretly as well as openly, but you did not respond. I gave you sincere counsel, but you did not accept it. Are you present like the absent, and slaves like masters? I recite before you points of wisdom but you turn away from them, and I advise you with far reaching advice but you disperse away from it. I rouse you for jihad against the people of revolt but before I come to the end of my speech, I see you disperse like the sons of Saba.

      You return to your places and deceive one another by your counsel. I straighten you in the morning but you are back to me in the evening as curved as the back of a bow. The sraightener has become weary while those to be straightened have become incorrigible.

      O' those whose bodies are present but wits are absent, and whose wishes are scattered. Their rulers are on trial. Your leader obeys Allah but you disobeyed him while the leader of the people of Syria (ash-Sham) disobeys Allah but they obey him.

      By Allah, I wish Mu`awiyah exchanges with me like Dinars with Dirhams, so that he takes from me ten of you and gives me one from them.

      O' people of Kufah, I have experienced in you three things and two others: you are deaf in spite of having ears, dumb in spite of speaking, and blind in spite of having eyes. You are neither true supporters in combat nor dependable brothers in distress. Your hands may be soiled with earth. O' examples of those camels whose herdsman has disappeared, if they are collected together from one side they disperse from the other.

      By Allah, I see you in my imagination that if war becomes intense and action is in full swing you would run away from the son of Abi Talib like the woman who becomes naked in the front. I am certainly on clear guidance from my Lord (Allah) and on the path of my Prophet and I am on the right path which I adhere to regularly.

      So certainly I wouldn't like to be from these crooks and cowards who were in Hz. Ali (ra)'s camp.

      Just image how desperate Hz. Ali (ra) was that he was willing to exchange 10 of his followers with that of Hz. Muawiyah (ra).

      By Allah, I wish Mu`awiyah exchanges with me like Dinars with Dirhams, so that he takes from me ten of you and gives me one from them.

      There are more such sermons where Hz. Ali (ra) is fed up to his teeth with his own supporters.
      Last edited by Ibn Sadique; Mar 4th, 2008 at 06:57 PM.

    18. #18
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      Imam Shafi (rahimahullaah) has stated the Sunni stance when he said the following (concerning the SAHABAH (raa): "I have allegiance for them and I seek Allaah's forgiveness for them, and for all the people of Camel and Siffeen, those who killed and those who were killed, and all the companions of the Prophet entirety" [AAMEEN]

      Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah said, explaining the ‘aqeedah of Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah: They (i.e., the Sunnis) love the people of the household of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him); they regard them with love and loyalty, and they heed the command of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) concerning them… but they reject the way of the Raafidis who hate the Sahaabah and slander them, and they reject the way of the Naasibis who insult Ahl al-Bayt in words and deed. Ahl al-Sunnah do not indulge in discussions about the disputes that took place among the Sahaabah. [Al-‘Aqeedah al-Waasitiyyah, Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 3/154]

      The battle of Siffin was between Believers

      Narrated AbuBakrah: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said to al-Hasan ibn Ali (ra). This son of mine is a Sayyid (chief), and I hope Allah may reconcile two parties of my community by means of him. Hammad's version has: And perhaps Allah may reconcile two large parties of Muslims by means of him. Book 40, Number 4645

      Note: The Prophet (saw) has stated that two parties are Muslim – neither of them Munafiq.

      In Sunan Bayhiqi it is narrated that on the eve of the war of Jamal, Ali Radhi Allaahu ta'ala 'anh was asked about the opponents:

      "Are they Mushrikeen?"

      He replied: "They have run from shirk and come into Islaam"

      Then he was asked "Are they Munafiqeen?"

      He replied "Munafiqeen are those who don't remember Allah, except a little (while the opponents do a lot of Zikr)"

      Then he was asked: "Then what are they?"

      He replied:" They are our brothers who have rebelled from us” - [Sunun Bayhiqi - Dairat ul Ma'arif edition page 173 vol 8]

      Note: Hazrat Ali (ra) has stated that his opponents were ‘our brothers’.

      The thing began in this way: We and the Syrians were facing each other while we had common faith in one Allah, in the same Prophet (s) and on the same principles and canons of religion. So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in and they did not want us to change our faith. Both of us were united on these principles. The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split. They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it. Nahjul Balagha - Letter 58

      Note: Hazrat Ali (ra) has stated that there not an iota of difference in the faith of both the parties.

      Stance of Hz. Mu'awiyah (ra) towards Hz. Ali (ra).

      Al-Dhahabi narrated in "Sayr A'alam Al-Nubala'a" from Ya'ali bin Ubayd from his father who says: Abu Muslim Al-Khulani and some others went to Mu'awiyah and asked him: "Do you dispute Ali or are you equal to him?

      Mu'awiyah answered: "By Allah no. I know he is better than I am, and he has the right to rule, but do not you know that Uthman was killed as an innocent? And I am his cousin and the seeker of his revenge? Therefore go to Ali and tell him to send me Uthman's murderers then I will obey him."

      They went to Ali and talked to him, but Ali refused to hand in Uthman's murderers to Mu'awiyah. [ Sayr A'alam Al-Nubala'a, vol.3, p.140]”

      "Ali is better and more virtuous than me and I differ from him only in the matter of qisaas of Uthmaan (Radhi Allaahu Ta'ala 'anh) and if he takes the qisaas of the blood of uthmaan I will be the first of the people of syria to make bayah to him" [al-Bidayatu wan Nihaayah page 129,259 vol 7]

      We should pay heed to and reflect upon the following ayahs of the holy Quran:

      These are the Words of Almighty Allah (swt) Himself:

      That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case! 2:134 & 2:141

      And those who came (into the faith) after them say: Our Lord! Forgive us and our brethren who were before us in the faith, and place not in our hearts any rancour toward those who believe. Our Lord! Thou art Full of Pity, Merciful. 59:10

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