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    1. #1
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      I've often wondered what makes a scholar a scholar?

      Judging from the scholars I know from real-life and from hear-say, they tend to come from a large variety of cultural, educational, and spiritual background.

      My impression is that there are several ways in which someone can 'reach' the status of scholar. This not only pertains to Islamic scholars, but also to other religions and also to a historical context on how to become a scholar.
      Usually scholars have spent years in a madrassah or an other religious institution, they have done a lot of auto-didaction, and they have spent years in vicinity of other scholars. Sometimes, they also have had a formal academic training, usually in Islamic sciences.


      A few things which I've seen scholar have:

      - profound knowledge of the backbone of their religion, i.e. holy scripture
      usually -in the islamic setting- the scholars can mention dozens of ayahs with exact number and surah by heart, or chapter and verse in bible etc.

      - profound knowledge of the accessories of their religion, i.e. historical records.
      again in the islamic setting, they know various hadiths by heart. Similarly, in other religions the priest has profound knowledge of what the apostles wrote down.

      - they have profound knowledge on the interpretations of the above as put forth by others (usually past scholars). Usually, they don't give their own opinion, but echo opinions/conclusions that were formed by their predecessors.

      - they have profound knowledge on the history and historical context of their religion as far as that knowledge is obtained from sources within the religion

      - they are usually the person to which you turn for almost all questions relating to religion. Whether it be a political, economical, judicial of medical issues. The scholar knows all


      A few things which I find lacking in most scholars:

      - they have very little knowledge on history and historical context of their religion as obtained from sources outside the religion. From an archeological point of view, a lot has been written on islam by muslims, but also a lot has been written about islam by others. I think knowledge of the latter source is also pivotal to understand the role of islam in the world as a whole.

      - they are very close-minded for opinions that fall outside their own scope, even though noone is enforcing those opinions on the scholar. Somehow they experience it as an attack on the integrity of their religion, if someone puts forth a different opinion, even if it was for informational purposes

      - they have very little knowledge on (the history of) other religions/cultures/civilizations.

      ------------------

      With the abovementioned combination of traits, it is easy to see why in the current world setting, it is very difficult to get a dialogue going between various religions and various religious authorities.


      I therefore propose a more academic approach to becoming a scholar

      - Someone wanting to become a scholar should start formal university training in a broad subject such as history, archeology, life sciences, sociology.

      - After completion of the bachelor degree (3 years), that persons must go into a Masters program (2 years), in which that persons selects Islamic Sciences as major (if that person wants to become an Islamic scholar) and two minors that pertain to non-Islamic religions/cultures/civilization. The latter need not necessarily be Jewism or Christianity, one might also select a foregone religion such a Greek mythology or Azteks (in Mexico) or Zoroastrians, or a civilization, such as the Vikings or the Indians.

      - Part of the Masters training should also be a 6 months to year internship at a religious institution to get first hand experience into being a scholar

      - Completion of the Masters should give someone a Grade I title of Islamic Scholar. Grade I means that that person can be considered knowledgeable on general Islamic Principles. That persons also has insights into some other religions outside Islam, and has the ability to compare, relate, abstract, extrapolate Islamic knowledge to certain situations.

      - After completion of the Masters, that persons should go into a PhD project for Islamic Sciences and then focus on one Islamic school of Thought. The PhD training will take 4 years to complete. The PhD will be conducted under the direct supervision of a grade II or III Scholar (see below).

      - Upon completion that person will become a Grade II Islamic Scholar. This entails that that persons can be considered knowledgeable regarding the general Islamic Principles, but also how that relates to a certain School of thought within Islam. That person can therefore also give guidelines to others on interpretations etc, as long as it is a general inquiry. This means that they cannot give guidelines regarding specific situations. These are situations for which one needs additional knowledge outside religion: such as medical knowledge for medical inquiries, judicial knowledge for judicial inquiries, etc

      - For further higher studies, Grade II Scholars can decide to persue further specialization. So if someone wants to specialize in giving judicial guidelines within the framework of Islam, that persons should be required to go to lawschool. This combination will then give rise to Grade III Scholars. Highly specialized scholars, that have a good basic training, and have excellent skills to deal with specific religious questions that arise in their field of specialization. This means that a Grade III Scholar from one specialization cannot give guidelines regarding a different specialization.



      I think if muslims can implement worldwide such a system to become a scholar, it will greatly benefit not only islam, but also other religions.

    2. #2
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      I agree with the first few points that you mention on what a scholar is.

      But disagree with the rest.

      - they have very little knowledge on history and historical context of their religion as obtained from sources outside the religion. From an archeological point of view, a lot has been written on islam by muslims, but also a lot has been written about islam by others. I think knowledge of the latter source is also pivotal to understand the role of islam in the world as a whole.

      - they are very close-minded for opinions that fall outside their own scope, even though noone is enforcing those opinions on the scholar. Somehow they experience it as an attack on the integrity of their religion, if someone puts forth a different opinion, even if it was for informational purposes

      - they have very little knowledge on (the history of) other religions/cultures/civilizations.
      1. Not true, it all depends on the scholars you go to, not all will have knowledge of history from non-Muslims BUT there a great number scholars who read and know what the non-Muslims said and say about Islam (historical, cultural, social,etc..)

      2. A true scholar will never feel that the other party is attacking their religion. Again, you have chosen to look at a specific category of scholars that you are used to. A true scholar will debate the issue in a civilized manner in light of Quran and Sunnah (these are sources which a Muslim cannot deny)

      3. Scholars DO HAVE knowledge of history of other religions and cultures. It is with this knowledge they have been able with the help of Allah to give dawah to other cultures. One can only give dawah if one is able to understand the way of life of the party that is being given dawah too. For the past 1400 years, you think scholars have no knowledge of other cultures? Yes there are some who have no interest in learning other cultures but that's not to say they are not considered scholars, they are in their own right.



      Now as for your proposal, please do not take this as I am attacking you, just an observation and my view on this topic, who are you to come up with a curriculum? Are you a scholar?

      We already have a curriculum and it has been passed on for the last 1400 years and it has been modified with time. This has been passed down by scholars themselves and if these knowledgeable people for the past hundreds of years have not had to change the way, then who are we to impose?

      There are still many traditional scholars who also seek worldly knowledge. The best of them are doctors, engineers, lawyers, you name it. And scholars ENCOURAGE to seek worldly knowledge because all knowledge is good.

      But we forget, it's not an easy task to becoming a scholar. It's not an ordinary position that one has. It is an honour bestowed on those who show true faith, who sacrifice more than the ordinary individual, they give up daily luxuries, subhan'Allah,...after all they are not seeking worldly knowledge! They are learning the Word of Allah! The knowledge passed down from the Rasoolullah (pbuh)!! If some body thinks that all this can be obtained in the same manner worldly knowledge is obtained, sorry to say but that somebody does not appreciate TRUE knowledge.

      It is time to aknowledge our Ulema for what they have done and are doing. It is time to pray for them!

      Narrated Anas:

      Rasoolullah (pbuh) said: "From among the portents of the Hour are (the following):

      Religious knowledge will be taken away (by the death of Religious learned men).

      Narrated Abu hurairah:

      And 'Umar bin 'Abdul 'Aziz wrote to Abu Bakr bin Hazm, "Look for the knowledge of Hadith and get it written, as I am afraid that religious knowledge will vanish and the religious learned men will pass away (die). Do not accept anything save the Hadiths of the Prophet. Circulate knowledge and teach the ignorant, for knowledge does not vanish except when it is kept secretly (to oneself)."


      Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr bin Al' As:
      I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "Allah does not take away the knowledge, by taking it away from (the hearts of) the people, but takes it away by the death of the religious learned men till when none of the (religious learned men) remains, people will take as their leaders ignorant persons who when consulted will give their verdict without knowledge. So they will go astray and will lead the people astray."





      Allah has put the Ulema at such a status that their testimony is being taking along with the Angels! Allah says:


      Allah (Himself) is Witness that there is no Allah save Him. And the angels and the men of learning (too are witness). Maintaining His creation in justice, there is no Allah save Him the Almighty, the Wise.

      surah imran verse 18.



      may Allah preserve the Ulema.


      Bro, please do not misundstand my intention, I know you too have good intentions. Allah knows best.

    3. #3
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      What are your views on scholars who always bring ahaadeeth along with Quranic verses to explain a ruling?
      “Quite often good things have hurtful consequences. There are instances of men who have been ruined by their money or KILLED by their COURAGE.” ~Aristotle

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      It is important to note here that scholars are specialists in specific areas. Traditionally and some today would receive ijaza to teach a given topical area, and ijaza would be required for each topic.

      If there are some who appear close minded in aspects of Islam outside their own speciality then this is a good sign, because they do not exercise 'freedom' to interpolate' in areas that they have not specialised in.

      For the vast majority of Muslims we aught to be fairly hesitant to formulate our own independent understandings, rather we should hold the pursuit of understanding Islam they way appointed scholars have understood it and reflect upon their reflections. If we differ then instead of coining new 'understandings' we aught to go back to specialists in those fields and voice our ideas to them.

      For example I have certain ideas regarding interpretation of ayah from the Qur'an, but I cannot put them to the public domain with any authority unless I become a scholar in that particular topic. Namely Arabic Etymology, Morphology, Grammar and Physics (justification).

      Peace
      The Prophet(SAW) said:
      "I am leaving you two things and you will never go astray as long as you cling to them -- they are the Book of Allah and my Sunnah." [Reported by Al- Haakim - Sahih].

    5. #5
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      As for scholars echoing scholars of the past. I think its a brilliant move. Scholars who are traditionalists are able to understand the world we live in today better. This is because they can compare and contrast the people of the past, the history Islam has had, and how it can be applied in this lifetime.

      So often do we forget that we are born an this era where alot has changed from times before. We are immune to the evils of society, the unjust systems we live and adhere to in our daily lives. The scholars are aware of it we are not. Thats why their opinion seems strange and out dated, but they have a better grasp due to their knowledge and understanding of the past.

      Islam was stronger before, than it is now. We need to learn our history to gain strength today. If we focused on issues at hand today, without knowledge of the framework used back in the day to right the wrong, we will surely be in loss! Which we are.

      May Allah bless these scholars, and keep them strong.

      They are open minded, they are educated, and if people put aside the stereotype against the "mullahs" which they have been brainwashed into adopting, they will see the illuminating life of this deen, the Scholars of Islam.

      Finally, to be a scholar you must have two very important things, Isnad and Ijazah. Permission from a previous scholar, and a lineage of scholarship going back to the Prophet pbuh.


      I also would like to ask you regarding Sh. Hamza Yusuf, as he lacks the image of a scholar you described, and is able to do all and more of which you recommended.
      Last edited by Crescent; Sep 17th, 2008 at 12:52 PM.
      "Lets not dwell into matters which have already been dealt with 1400 years ago. Go read for yourself, and understand it yourself." Sh. Hamza Yusuf

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      I will say this, having knowledge whether broad or specialized may make you a scholar but it does not make you right and correct.

      Scholarly endeavors must be coherent with the society and not remnants of a society past. Our scholars need to work with scholars and educated people from other disciplines in life. Religion cannot stand alone without connection to other things in life.

      If our scholars could have a realistic connect with life, they would be more effective. They do not produce solutions to real world problems or issues. Our religion has become literally rooted into the scriptures rather than there meanings due to our scholars.

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      Quote Originally Posted by USResident View Post
      I will say this, having knowledge whether broad or specialized may make you a scholar but it does not make you right and correct.

      Scholarly endeavors must be coherent with the society and not remnants of a society past. Our scholars need to work with scholars and educated people from other disciplines in life. Religion cannot stand alone without connection to other things in life.

      If our scholars could have a realistic connect with life, they would be more effective. They do not produce solutions to real world problems or issues. Our religion has become literally rooted into the scriptures rather than there meanings due to our scholars.

      Well said!

    8. #8
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      A person once asked the Prophet (saw),"I'd like to be the most learned of men".

      The Prophet (saw) replied,"
      Fear Allah, and you will be the most learned of men."

      Also "Taqwa" is the true source of becoming a scholar along with sincere thirst for knowledge. I have personally found those people more effective scholars who have gone through a lot of hardships in order to gain knowledge and their actions speak louder then their words. Because speaking is easier than practical implementations and one value knowledge more when one gets it the hard way.

      Also
      I have found that knowledge comes easier to the humble people. When a noble man learns knowledge he becomes humble, whereas when an ignoble person gains knowledge, he becomes conceited. True Knowledge can only be acquired through humility. The path towards this knowledge is like a person’s wanting to drink from a stream: he has to lower himself to be able to drink. Water seeks the lowest level, thus we have to imitate water.

      One should also quietly reflect upon knowledge to be able to remember it and understand different dimensions of it, because a knowledge which is not absorbed but only heard is useless. Some scholars think that their loud voice and too much speaking is a proof of the depth of their knowledge, but an empty utensil makes more noise than the full one.
      Last edited by Submission To Peace; Sep 17th, 2008 at 06:56 PM.
      Jinko sajdey mein roney ki aadat ho dost woh kabhi qismat par roya nahin kartey.

    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by USResident View Post
      I will say this, having knowledge whether broad or specialized may make you a scholar but it does not make you right and correct.

      Scholarly endeavors must be coherent with the society and not remnants of a society past. Our scholars need to work with scholars and educated people from other disciplines in life. Religion cannot stand alone without connection to other things in life.

      If our scholars could have a realistic connect with life, they would be more effective. They do not produce solutions to real world problems or issues. Our religion has become literally rooted into the scriptures rather than there meanings due to our scholars.
      Salam,

      I have yet to come across scholars who are disconnected from the world we live in today. Seriously, I have nooooooo idea what kind of 'scholars' you are running into.

      They are connected, they have solutions, its up to us to adhere to them or not. And ofcourse we would like it otherwise, the way which is easier and more popular and socially accepted. (speaking for myself, not you bro)

      We can't be submissive to the needs of the society we live in, if that were the case, Islam would've never left the boundries of the house of Khadijah r.a. Islam is a transformative religion, it changes the people around them to be just and prosperous in this life and the next.

      The trendsetters and society leaders of our time, do not adhere to that principle. They are concerned for the world, and want to make the most of their life. While muslims believe in the afterlife and work for that.

      Thus, if our scholars are trying to be transformative and want to bring change in the world, as it was before, by being traditionalist, then may Allah bless them more, because the systems and structures which man has built int he last century are not effective, and definitely not just. The scholars want to change that.

      When Baghdad was ransacked by mongols, and people were lined up daily to be executed (close to 800,000 people, muslims, jews, christians, anyone), butchered, and raped on the streets, the scholars of that time went against the coming tide and still gave dawah. Practiced what they knew to be best, did what was right. And then look what happened couple years later, the sound of adhaan came from the palaces of the mongols! The whole army converted.

      This is the power, this is the transformative nature. Today the west is where it is because of their traditionalist scholars. Renaissance was all about going back to the ancient texts. After the Dark ages, it was the eastern scholars who educated the western scholars, which they call the Renaissance, the age of enlightenment.

      They gave value to antiquities of the past, to the greeks the muslims the romans, and learned from them to develop the lifestyle in which we all currently live through.

      Our scholars need to implement the ideologies of the past (since they were the closest to the Prophet pbuh) and transform the people and systems today for a better tomorrow.

      Again, we need to stop being so submissive to the systems and the needs of society, rather we should be submissive to the call of Islam, and submissive to the demands of Allah swt, for he knows best, and our test is in this submissive nature which we have to adopt for a better future.
      "Lets not dwell into matters which have already been dealt with 1400 years ago. Go read for yourself, and understand it yourself." Sh. Hamza Yusuf

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by Crescent_ View Post
      Salam,

      Again, we need to stop being so submissive to the systems and the needs of society, rather we should be submissive to the call of Islam, and submissive to the demands of Allah swt, for he knows best, and our test is in this submissive nature which we have to adopt for a better future.
      Jazakallah khair

    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by Crescent_ View Post
      As for scholars echoing scholars of the past. I think its a brilliant move. Scholars who are traditionalists are able to understand the world we live in today better. This is because they can compare and contrast the people of the past, the history Islam has had, and how it can be applied in this lifetime.

      So often do we forget that we are born an this era where alot has changed from times before. We are immune to the evils of society, the unjust systems we live and adhere to in our daily lives. The scholars are aware of it we are not. Thats why their opinion seems strange and out dated, but they have a better grasp due to their knowledge and understanding of the past.

      Islam was stronger before, than it is now. We need to learn our history to gain strength today. If we focused on issues at hand today, without knowledge of the framework used back in the day to right the wrong, we will surely be in loss! Which we are.

      May Allah bless these scholars, and keep them strong.

      They are open minded, they are educated, and if people put aside the stereotype against the "mullahs" which they have been brainwashed into adopting, they will see the illuminating life of this deen, the Scholars of Islam.

      Finally, to be a scholar you must have two very important things, Isnad and Ijazah. Permission from a previous scholar, and a lineage of scholarship going back to the Prophet pbuh.


      I also would like to ask you regarding Sh. Hamza Yusuf, as he lacks the image of a scholar you described, and is able to do all and more of which you recommended.
      Salam

      I gather the question you asked was for me. Please clarify the question. Sh. Hamza Yusuf for example is a good example of someone traditional. He has been given ijaza on some matters also. From his own words he sees that Islam as it should be manifest in Muslims is striking the correct balance between naql (tradition) and aql (reason).

      Quote Originally Posted by Crescent_ View Post
      Salam,

      I have yet to come across scholars who are disconnected from the world we live in today. Seriously, I have nooooooo idea what kind of 'scholars' you are running into.

      They are connected, they have solutions, its up to us to adhere to them or not. And ofcourse we would like it otherwise, the way which is easier and more popular and socially accepted. (speaking for myself, not you bro)

      We can't be submissive to the needs of the society we live in, if that were the case, Islam would've never left the boundries of the house of Khadijah r.a. Islam is a transformative religion, it changes the people around them to be just and prosperous in this life and the next.

      The trendsetters and society leaders of our time, do not adhere to that principle. They are concerned for the world, and want to make the most of their life. While muslims believe in the afterlife and work for that.

      Thus, if our scholars are trying to be transformative and want to bring change in the world, as it was before, by being traditionalist, then may Allah bless them more, because the systems and structures which man has built int he last century are not effective, and definitely not just. The scholars want to change that.

      When Baghdad was ransacked by mongols, and people were lined up daily to be executed (close to 800,000 people, muslims, jews, christians, anyone), butchered, and raped on the streets, the scholars of that time went against the coming tide and still gave dawah. Practiced what they knew to be best, did what was right. And then look what happened couple years later, the sound of adhaan came from the palaces of the mongols! The whole army converted.

      This is the power, this is the transformative nature. Today the west is where it is because of their traditionalist scholars. Renaissance was all about going back to the ancient texts. After the Dark ages, it was the eastern scholars who educated the western scholars, which they call the Renaissance, the age of enlightenment.

      They gave value to antiquities of the past, to the greeks the muslims the romans, and learned from them to develop the lifestyle in which we all currently live through.

      Our scholars need to implement the ideologies of the past (since they were the closest to the Prophet pbuh) and transform the people and systems today for a better tomorrow.

      Again, we need to stop being so submissive to the systems and the needs of society, rather we should be submissive to the call of Islam, and submissive to the demands of Allah swt, for he knows best, and our test is in this submissive nature which we have to adopt for a better future.
      Modernity is about changing for the sake of change, and many do not know what they are changing for. Any change that is good is when it is meant for us to move towards our goals. Unfortunately Muslims today ask the wrong questions from the muftis of Islam.

      Instead of asking them what is better, we choose to ask them what is permissible.

      This seems at face value like a subtle difference but overall it has massive implications. One line of questioning pre-supposes the person to continue in his habits so long as Islam is not being compromised the other line of questioning is when a person is actively engaged in trying to salvage as much reward as possible.

      By going traditional we can see how perfect the Muslims actually wanted to become.

      Let me bring up an example: The consuption of Coca-Cola. We ask is it haram? Of course there are rumours about some ingredients and so on, but on the whole it is not haram, however, when we look a bit more closely it is a brand name which carries with it a stigma of western culture and attitude, the idea of imitating them could be in question, carbonated drinks are detrimental to our teeth and the acidity is bad on our guts. Let alone the possible long term addiction to the caffene. What is better to drink? Of course water is far better than Coca-Cola with respect to the above points.

      A Muslims seeking to improve him/herself will seek to curb desire and Coca-Cola is all about nursing desires. The taste, the feeling the image ... WoW ...

      That is why I drink Pepsi .....

      No ... What I mean to say is ... Islamic I could be ... but a careful one I am not.

      By the way your post above promoted this ... I agree with you.
      The Prophet(SAW) said:
      "I am leaving you two things and you will never go astray as long as you cling to them -- they are the Book of Allah and my Sunnah." [Reported by Al- Haakim - Sahih].

    12. #12
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      Salam

      ^ no difference of opinion there my brother, Pepsi !!! : )

    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by USResident View Post
      I will say this, having knowledge whether broad or specialized may make you a scholar but it does not make you right and correct.

      Scholarly endeavors must be coherent with the society and not remnants of a society past. Our scholars need to work with scholars and educated people from other disciplines in life. Religion cannot stand alone without connection to other things in life.

      If our scholars could have a realistic connect with life, they would be more effective. They do not produce solutions to real world problems or issues. Our religion has become literally rooted into the scriptures rather than there meanings due to our scholars.
      I agree. How many scholars talk about environment, preserving nature and wildlife, recycling, food, eating habits, education, consumerism, commercialism, finances, governmental manipulation etc?
      Very few I guess.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Submission To Peace View Post
      A person once asked the Prophet (saw),"I'd like to be the most learned of men".

      The Prophet (saw) replied," Fear Allah, and you will be the most learned of men."

      Also "Taqwa" is the true source of becoming a scholar along with sincere thirst for knowledge. I have personally found those people more effective scholars who have gone through a lot of hardships in order to gain knowledge and their actions speak louder then their words. Because speaking is easier than practical implementations and one value knowledge more when one gets it the hard way.

      Also I have found that knowledge comes easier to the humble people. When a noble man learns knowledge he becomes humble, whereas when an ignoble person gains knowledge, he becomes conceited. True Knowledge can only be acquired through humility. The path towards this knowledge is like a person’s wanting to drink from a stream: he has to lower himself to be able to drink. Water seeks the lowest level, thus we have to imitate water.

      One should also quietly reflect upon knowledge to be able to remember it and understand different dimensions of it, because a knowledge which is not absorbed but only heard is useless. Some scholars think that their loud voice and too much speaking is a proof of the depth of their knowledge, but an empty utensil makes more noise than the full one.
      Bro STP

      Forgive me for picking on your post, but it is an example of what I was saying. Fear Allah SWT, in this hadith carries the implication of understanding his message. Without having an understanding about the existence of God, this fear lies dormant and suppressed by desires. If you would but ponder upon this hadith in the context of 14 centuries ago, pursuit of scriptural knowledge was the most forward form of education in those days. All other knowledge of weaponry, warfare, other disciplines in life was more or less not as skewed among people as was religious knowledge or the knowledge about Allah SWT and this hadith fits beautifully in context when understood along with it.

      However given the multifaceted complex life of today, this hadith cannot be taken in the same context of centuries ago. In the multi-pronged approach to life today, the prong which brings us closest to Allah SWT should stand out farthest ahead but not on its own. All other educational aspects of life today are cousins to the learning of religion.

      The rest of your post carries pearls of wisdom which are just eloquent but of no practical value, ones produced, when religion is studied in isolation from all else in the world. And this is precisely what I was alluding to. Could anyone infer any practical solution to the real life problems of today from the last part of your post, I think not. Its just good for reading pleasure.

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      Quote Originally Posted by psyah View Post
      That is why I drink Pepsi .....
      bad boy .....

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      Crescent bro

      Quote Originally Posted by Crescent_ View Post
      Salam,

      I have yet to come across scholars who are disconnected from the world we live in today. Seriously, I have nooooooo idea what kind of 'scholars' you are running into.

      They are connected, they have solutions, its up to us to adhere to them or not. And ofcourse we would like it otherwise, the way which is easier and more popular and socially accepted. (speaking for myself, not you bro)
      Bro, by connected I do not mean living their own life in todays world. What i mean is what solutions are they producing for todays muslims that are not already there. Our scholars are mostly still busy resolving interfeuds between different sects of muslims, different fatwas on the same subject, they still cannot even agree on moonsighting, 8 rakah or 20 rakah for tarawih, other such issues. The only issues that dominate religious circles are ones about differences of opinion in interpretation of our scriptural resources. After 14 centuries the contradictions amongst our scholars have not converged but only divulged even more thus creating more disparity amongst muslims in the world. The further back we go in history we will find more and more convergence on issues until we arrive at the source of our knowledge i.e. Quran and Hadith. The rest is the everchanging world of fiqh.


      Quote Originally Posted by Crescent_ View Post
      We can't be submissive to the needs of the society we live in, if that were the case, Islam would've never left the boundries of the house of Khadijah r.a. Islam is a transformative religion, it changes the people around them to be just and prosperous in this life and the next.

      The trendsetters and society leaders of our time, do not adhere to that principle. They are concerned for the world, and want to make the most of their life. While muslims believe in the afterlife and work for that.
      I do not support being submissive either, but rather understanding the needs to todays society. To me it is quite simple, Quranic guidance is for all time. If that is to be the case, then there should be nothing in todays society that could not be corrected through Quranic guidance and proper understanding of hadith. Tradiotionalist scholars view the world as if the problems of the past still exist as they were before. Not the case anymore, the problems are new or they have evolved into something different.

      Quote Originally Posted by Crescent_ View Post
      Thus, if our scholars are trying to be transformative and want to bring change in the world, as it was before, by being traditionalist, then may Allah bless them more, because the systems and structures which man has built int he last century are not effective, and definitely not just. The scholars want to change that.
      Here is how I see it, we have all the principled guidance in the Quran and hadith we will need throughout our life and for future generations. I emphasize guidance. Our duty is to preserve the correct aqidah and Islamic practice and figure out our own solutions in every age and time rather than keep recycling solutions of the past as is the view of traditionalist scholars.

      Quote Originally Posted by Crescent_ View Post
      When Baghdad was ransacked by mongols, and people were lined up daily to be executed (close to 800,000 people, muslims, jews, christians, anyone), butchered, and raped on the streets, the scholars of that time went against the coming tide and still gave dawah. Practiced what they knew to be best, did what was right. And then look what happened couple years later, the sound of adhaan came from the palaces of the mongols! The whole army converted.

      This is the power, this is the transformative nature. Today the west is where it is because of their traditionalist scholars. Renaissance was all about going back to the ancient texts. After the Dark ages, it was the eastern scholars who educated the western scholars, which they call the Renaissance, the age of enlightenment.

      They gave value to antiquities of the past, to the greeks the muslims the romans, and learned from them to develop the lifestyle in which we all currently live through.

      Our scholars need to implement the ideologies of the past (since they were the closest to the Prophet pbuh) and transform the people and systems today for a better tomorrow.

      Again, we need to stop being so submissive to the systems and the needs of society, rather we should be submissive to the call of Islam, and submissive to the demands of Allah swt, for he knows best, and our test is in this submissive nature which we have to adopt for a better future.
      I cannot understand the reason for this much of the post with what I said. I understand you are saying Old is Gold but that is not what I am discussing.

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      Quote Originally Posted by hareem01 View Post
      I agree. How many scholars talk about environment, preserving nature and wildlife, recycling, food, eating habits, education, consumerism, commercialism, finances, governmental manipulation etc?
      Very few I guess.
      JAK Sis. Howz the kiddo??????

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      Quote Originally Posted by USResident View Post
      JAK Sis. Howz the kiddo??????
      Alhamdulilah, they're fine....how about yourself and your family?

      Quote Originally Posted by USResident View Post
      Tradiotionalist scholars view the world as if the problems of the past still exist as they were before. Not the case anymore, the problems are new or they have evolved into something different.
      According to Islamic as well as Western traditionalists those new problems are the result of abandoning the old ways and traditions.
      The best way of solving those problems is to returning to our roots, to our traditions.

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