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    1. #1
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      Was Hajirah (pbuh), Ibrahim (pbuh)'s wife or bondmaid?
      I am not a scholar so I do not take responsibility for the accuracy of the religious information contained within my post.

    2. #2
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      Quote Originally Posted by Nosherwan View Post
      Was Hajirah (pbuh), Ibrahim (pbuh)'s wife or bondmaid?
      1. This type of questions are thrust upon Muslims by the half-educated (religiously speaking) Christians.

      2. Does it make a difference FROM YOUR vantage point, if our Grand-Messenger Abrahim pbuh had a lady in his house who bore His (pbuh) aulad, that she was a slave girl or wife?

      3. In the old cultures, every man worth his salt had women whom he "married" or "took in" as maids or slaves (lucky those men!). However all the women in his harem would serve him (darn the practice is gone in 21st century), bear his children, clean his house, and cook for him.

      Thus perhaps we should avoid such derogatory terms for the family of our Messengers.

      That's all.

    3. #3
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      ^ On ther other hand, I believe this is exactly the kind of approach we should take to analyze religion (in other words what these righteous men did) just as we like to criticize everything else.

      Point 1 is a generalization
      Point 2: Yes, it totally does! Why shouldn't the followers question the very lives of these men who influenced the world to the point where we have stopped thinking beyond religion?
      Point 3: Jealous, aren't you? Too bad women now have a whole lot more to offer than babies and free maid services. Now women do all of that with dignity and love not with resentment and fear.

      In any case, answer what she's asking you if you have the answer. If you don't know then do no counter question her. Thank you..
      Last edited by Miss_Noland; Mar 25th, 2010 at 10:32 PM.

    4. #4
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      burqa, I think Christians themselves believe she was his bondmaid, I think it is mentioned in their Bible.

      I just wanted the Muslim point of view.
      I am not a scholar so I do not take responsibility for the accuracy of the religious information contained within my post.

    5. #5
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      Nosh!

      Here is the quick answer!

      Bibi Hajra pbuh was Abrahim pbuh's beloved wife, though much younger than him, but she was the LEGAL wife. And she bore him a son! Ismael.

      And anyone disrespecting or disparaging Bibi Hajra pbuh will be disparaging Abrahim pbuh.

      got it?

      Would you guys now get out of the Abrahim pbuh's bedroom? Please?


      Serious discussion ---- OFF

      Now on to
      Gupshup Bickering and sundry pseudo-intellectual stuff ------>


      Men and woman of all ages contributed to our physical and intellectual development and growth. Saying then women of today are contributing more to the survival of our species than our great great great great grandmas is simply a self-praising, self-slapping baloney.

      Clearly! Miss Noland's view of our ancestors is a bit myopic. Our species have been around for about 40,000 to 50,000 years, and survived through famine and global warming/cooling cycles.

      Abrahim pbuh was one of the many many intellectuals who came along during those tumultuous times, and in their own way contributed to this development.


      Thanks to their lifestyle, we are all here, typing drivel about them or the way they lived.

      Strange! Isn't it?

      Oh and BTW, we ourselves are about to go into a major change in our environment. And the once that change hits, and our basic survival would be at stake, you will see Miss Noland, that we would quickly revert to the harems and wives and maids.

      Just watch the thought provoking BBC series "Survivors"

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivors_(2008_TV_series)

      And see how men and women "willingly" cooperate for survival in a relatively primitive world.

      Then my dear, you will surely realize that Arbahim pbuh was living according to his time. And not according to OUR time.

      Thus a critical analysis of daily habits like brushing teeth, using toilet paper, microwave cooking etc. can't be used to prove that our life style is somehow superior than theirs.

      What we should really compare from those times and ours is: Intellectual and spiritual growth with a clear goal for us improving love and harmony in our times.

      Thank you!


      p.s. So Miss Noland, I bet you didn't get the light-hearted puns at the lifestyles during the old times in my first post's bullet #3.

      We don't need PETA and NOW members to object to every little sentence that we use.
      Last edited by burqaposhx; Mar 26th, 2010 at 08:16 AM.

    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by burqaposhx View Post
      Nosh!

      Here is the quick answer!

      Bibi Hajra pbuh was Abrahim pbuh's beloved wife, though much younger than him, but she was the LEGAL wife. And she bore him a son! Ismael.

      And anyone disrespecting or disparaging Bibi Hajra pbuh will be disparaging Abrahim pbuh.

      got it?

      Would you guys now get out of the Abrahim pbuh's bedroom? Please?


      Serious discussion ---- OFF

      Now on to
      Gupshup Bickering and sundry pseudo-intellectual stuff ------>
      It's interesting to see how you would accuse the rest of us for bickering when that "stuff" we talk about could be so much more important and relavent to US.


      Men and woman of all ages contributed to our physical and intellectual development and growth. Saying then women of today are contributing more to the survival of our species than our great great great great grandmas is simply a self-praising, self-slapping baloney.
      Never said or meant that.. Women always contributed to our overall development even more so than men. Women are able to contribute MORE because of the freedom they have now that was hardly given to them before. Women were constantly reminded of their weaknesses which made them feel they couldn't do/achieve more! Women still have to work 10 times harder than men to succeed in the corporate world. There's still discrimination! I love being a woman and I admire every woman who stands up for her rights. Women hated being women before because of the limited rights/freedom they had before.

      Clearly! Miss Noland's view of our ancestors is a bit myopic. Our species have been around for about 40,000 to 50,000 years, and survived through famine and global warming/cooling cycles.
      Wow, you are calling my view myopic? I see everything very clearly, thank you. I appreciate the efforts our ancestors made. I salute them for their bravery but there were also liars, manupulators, and theives among them and they had power over others. They manipulated people, told them lies and it is the lies that are holding us back NOW! I appreciate evolving wisdom not straight up lies.

      Abrahim pbuh was one of the many many intellectuals who came along during those tumultuous times, and in their own way contributed to this development.
      Whatever you say. That's your opinion.

      Thanks to their lifestyle, we are all here, typing drivel about them or the way they lived.
      LOL...people like Abrahim and other self-proclaimed prophets did not help invent technology or anything important actually (maybe land constitution, rules and regulations that don't even matter anymore). You should be thanking Einstein, Addison, Newton, Max, Galileo, Leonardo, Tesla, Archimedes....etc. It shouldn't be suprising to you what they all had in common- drive to know how our world works! They were not hungry for power or fame.

      Strange! Isn't it?
      Yeah, it is. It is very strange.

      Oh and BTW, we ourselves are about to go into a major change in our environment. And the once that change hits, and our basic survival would be at stake, you will see Miss Noland, that we would quickly revert to the harems and wives and maids.
      Of course, men are physically stronger than women. I believe in survival of the fittest.

      Just watch the thought provoking BBC series "Survivors"

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivors_(2008_TV_series)

      And see how men and women "willingly" cooperate for survival in a relatively primitive world.

      Then my dear, you will surely realize that Arbahim pbuh was living according to his time. And not according to OUR time.

      Thus a critical analysis of daily habits like brushing teeth, using toilet paper, microwave cooking etc. can't be used to prove that our life style is somehow superior than theirs.

      What we should really compare from those times and ours is: Intellectual and spiritual growth with a clear goal for us improving love and harmony in our times.
      Read the bible, tell me how much love and harmony there is.... It was still according to that time. It was a necessarily evil then but it's no longer applicable. IF the world gets destroyed and some of us survive, we may need the authority of God again to push people to behave appropriately. Religion has its time and place just like constitution does!

      Thank you!
      You are welcome!


      p.s. So Miss Noland, I bet you didn't get the light-hearted puns at the lifestyles during the old times in my first post's bullet #3.
      What puns? O you mean how you wish you could treat us like your property? Light-hearted?....ok.

      We don't need PETA and NOW members to object to every little sentence that we use.
      ????????

    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by Miss_Noland View Post
      .......
      LOL...people like Abrahim and other self-proclaimed prophets ...
      May be they were self-proclaimed, or God sent. It really depends on your belief system.

      Hagar/Bib Hajra pbuh will get respect in your eyes if you think Abrahim was Godly man, intellectual, etc. But if you hate the very guts of him or simply declare him "self-proclaimed" etc., then you are wasting your time in this thread.

      Similarly those who respect Jesus / Eesah / Messiah pbuh, then they won't throw proverbial rocks at Mary Magdalene (may peace be upon her).

      Similarly those who respect Mohammad pbuh, won't throw rocks at Aysha pbuh.

      The idea is that "if you respect an intellectual", then just respect his immediate family unless these family members commit a crime.

      That's all.

    8. #8
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      we are muslims not Hagar worshippers or Hagarists, she was a great woman no doubt but being a slave girl or wife does not diminish or change her status.
      I think this debate is likely more a jew-muslim munazra for one-upmanship more than for historical accuracy as Ishaq was from a free woman and Ishmeal from this version atleast was not

    9. #9
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      Hazrat Ibrahim AS married to Harzat Hajira Bibi AS and their son's name was Hazrat Ismail AS and Hazrat Ibrahim AS wife and son was living in Makkah.

      Hazrat Ibrahim AS also married to Hazrat Bibi Sara AS and their son's name was Hazrat Ishaq AS who was living in country called 'Shaam' (Partly located in Egypt) The Third wife of Hazrat Ibrahim AS was Hazrat Qatorah and they were living in Yemen.

      Hazrat Ismail AS had 12 childs. As their family growing up they covered west side of Egypt and north side of country "shaam"(partly located in Egypt). 'Kiydar', one of Hazrat Ismail's AS son was living in Makkah and was served Khana Kaaba. Kidar's son was Adnan and Adnan's family chains reached to a son called "Qasa". who was powerful person in community who organized combined government in 440 Hijir. In his government he hold a parliament named "Dar-Ul-Nadwah" and selected a flag for it which called "law'a". He devided defence responsiblities in four kabilas (1) Rafadt (2) Sakayat (3) Hajabata (4) Qiyadat. Qasa's son name was "Abdul Munaf. The family chain from here is as:

      Qasa father of Hashim Father of Abdul Mutlab father of Hazrat Abdulla RA and Hazrat Muhammad who was our last Prophet .
      Never explain urself to any1 The person who likes u doesn't need it &The person who dislike u won't believe it

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by burqaposhx View Post
      May be they were self-proclaimed, or God sent. It really depends on your belief system.

      Hagar/Bib Hajra pbuh will get respect in your eyes if you think Abrahim was Godly man, intellectual, etc. But if you hate the very guts of him or simply declare him "self-proclaimed" etc., then you are wasting your time in this thread.

      Similarly those who respect Jesus / Eesah / Messiah pbuh, then they won't throw proverbial rocks at Mary Magdalene (may peace be upon her).

      Similarly those who respect Mohammad pbuh, won't throw rocks at Aysha pbuh.

      The idea is that "if you respect an intellectual", then just respect his immediate family unless these family members commit a crime.

      That's all.
      Well said..

    11. #11
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      story of Ismael alaihis salam by sheikh shady alsuleiman

      information regarding to this thread starts at around 8mins
      www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o8UmErRVZk

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by Miss_Noland View Post
      Women always contributed to our overall development even more so than men.
      men have their part of sharing to do, women have theirs

      Quote Originally Posted by Miss_Noland View Post
      Women are able to contribute MORE because of the freedom they have now that was hardly given to them before.
      well i dont know abt thousands of years ago, but yeah around 1400years back women had more freedom and rights and 'dignity' than they have today

      Quote Originally Posted by Miss_Noland View Post
      Women were constantly reminded of their weaknesses which made them feel they couldn't do/achieve more!
      feminists are to blaim for tht!! and to some extent women themselves are to blaim for having a complaining, narrow and low opinion of themselves

      Quote Originally Posted by Miss_Noland View Post
      people like Abrahim and other self-proclaimed prophets did not help invent technology or anything important actually
      well...Prophet Ibrahim(as) was not a self-proclaimed prophet.....and am sure there were einsteins in his age too, we didnt reach to this point ALL by ourselves now did we?...am sure anyone who's done science(or reads science novels;fiction or non-fiction) knows about it
      "Verily when He intends a thing, His Command is, Be, and it is. So glory to Him in Whose hands is the dominion of all things: and to Him will ye be all brought back"(36, 82-83)

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      Quote Originally Posted by sa-Nafooz View Post
      men have their part of sharing to do, women have theirs
      Yeah so..?


      well i dont know abt thousands of years ago, but yeah around 1400years back women had more freedom and rights and 'dignity' than they have today
      And you know this because????How could women have more freedom, rights, and dignity back then when they could be "captured" to become sex slaves? You are making me mad....

      feminists are to blaim for tht!! and to some extent women themselves are to blaim for having a complaining, narrow and low opinion of themselves
      OMG! Really? Women like you are the reason our fellow women are suffering in countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, etc. Keep blaming yourself and you will never grow out of it!

      well...Prophet Ibrahim(as) was not a self-proclaimed prophet.....and am sure there were einsteins in his age too, we didnt reach to this point ALL by ourselves now did we?...am sure anyone who's done science(or reads science novels;fiction or non-fiction) knows about it
      You don't even make sense here. Einsteins in that agre were probably put to death for being witches and sorcerers. We reached to this point not because of religion but because of intelligent people who studied the world we live in. No, anyone who's done scientific research or read any scientific material knows it wasn't due to religion. Religious folks always dispised scientists.

    14. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by sa-Nafooz View Post
      ....
      ... but yeah around 1400years back women had more freedom and rights and 'dignity' than they have today...
      See now you are committing the same mistake as those who attack Islam as a backward religion.

      1400 years ago, was a different time. So the freedom and rights should be looked at with the context of that old time.

      Fast forward to 2010, and it is a different time, and the freedoms and rights should be looked at the current context.

      If you lose the context, you will never understand the beauty of old religions including Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Shinto, or Buddhism.

      We as Muslims are the keepers of all these religions, and thus it is a must for us to respect all these religions, and make a judgement based on the proper context.

      Thank you.

    15. #15
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      ^ So you see why some people make me mad. Thanks, I agree with you!

    16. #16
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      Never explain urself to any1 The person who likes u doesn't need it &The person who dislike u won't believe it

    17. #17
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      sa-Nafooz's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Miss_Noland View Post
      Yeah so..?
      well if u'd ave read the quote u'd understand why i said that
      you said women contributed more than men, my belief is that women and men had an equal share in contributing in development and all.



      Quote Originally Posted by Miss_Noland View Post
      And you know this because????How could women have more freedom, rights, and dignity back then when they could be "captured" to become sex slaves? You are making me mad....
      that was pre-islamic era

      Quote Originally Posted by Miss_Noland View Post
      OMG! Really? Women like you are the reason our fellow women are suffering in countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, etc. Keep blaming yourself and you will never grow out of it!
      i see u have a habit of assuming things lady. cool down and lets have a proper mature talk here. in discussions no one is attacking anybody, we just try to get our views across. peacefully i might add.
      coming to yr post....i dont remember telling u am a 'woman'..and if u read my post with a calm mind u'll see that i have written the exact same thing u're telling me now....women should stop complaining and blaming themselves and thinking low about themselves(taking themselves as inferiors thus allowing to be subjected to abuse).

      Quote Originally Posted by Miss_Noland View Post
      You don't even make sense here. Einsteins in that agre were probably put to death for being witches and sorcerers. We reached to this point not because of religion but because of intelligent people who studied the world we live in. No, anyone who's done scientific research or read any scientific material knows it wasn't due to religion. Religious folks always dispised scientists.
      we have records showing of great scientists mathematicians and all from ceturies where they made discoveries, wrote down theories and facts.....they were respected.....we had greeks, romans, arabs, and other asian scientists....try setting yr facts right here...i have studied science history and i know that there existed scientists throughout the different ages, yes some were executed and some lived.

      Quote Originally Posted by burqaposhx View Post
      See now you are committing the same mistake as those who attack Islam as a backward religion.

      1400 years ago, was a different time. So the freedom and rights should be looked at with the context of that old time.

      Fast forward to 2010, and it is a different time, and the freedoms and rights should be looked at the current context.

      If you lose the context, you will never understand the beauty of old religions including Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Shinto, or Buddhism.

      We as Muslims are the keepers of all these religions, and thus it is a must for us to respect all these religions, and make a judgement based on the proper context.

      Thank you.
      i did not attack nor name any religion here..i will talk about religions but will never disrespect anyones beliefs, it's against my beliefs...but yes when i said 1400yrs back women had more freedom i mean when after the coming of islam..and during those times women could do business, own land, get educated and if someone dared take this right of theirs from them, they were sure to get justice....all i see now in most places is that women are denied the right to own property, get eduacted and all....we see women fighting for tehir rights everyday...(shukran walhamdulillah now things are changing though and we see more women coming out and getting their rights)..
      "Verily when He intends a thing, His Command is, Be, and it is. So glory to Him in Whose hands is the dominion of all things: and to Him will ye be all brought back"(36, 82-83)

    18. #18
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      just a curiousity...why do people only see women suffering in islamic countries??? does it mean women who live in non-islamic states are not women? or not worth the considerations?

      we have women suffering in africa, us, uk china, india, and loads of other places...why not talk about them?...they are humans as well...they get beaten up too, they too are expected to stay home and cook....it's totally unfair not to think about them and their sufferings, they too are humans just like any other woman living in an islamic state
      "Verily when He intends a thing, His Command is, Be, and it is. So glory to Him in Whose hands is the dominion of all things: and to Him will ye be all brought back"(36, 82-83)

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