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    1. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by cricketplaya View Post
      To my barelvi brothers, what's up with the green flags?
      What does green in Pakistani flag represent?

    2. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by TLK View Post
      Mohammad is still alive,
      It depends on what is defined as 'alive'. For example, Quran calls martyrs alive but have we seen any martyr walking amongst us?

      alimul ghaib,
      Prophet is not alimul ghaib on his own. He has knowledge as bestowed by Allah.
      It is like we calling someone a just person, even though we know that ultimte Justice is with Allah. And anyone else showing justice is what is given by Allah.

      always present,
      I guess we can make anyone present in our mind. Anytime, anywhere.
      آزمائش شرط ہے

    3. #21
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      Jee jee , ap sahi keh rahai hain. Mera bhee yeahi kahayal hai
      My father believed that if the world found out who I really was they'd reject me out of fear.

    4. #22
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      tlk ur right with ur views however, if one has lack of knowledge then no point me discussing this further

      Secondly, i wana ak hareem what ur aqeeda is on the 4 points tlk mentioned.. And i ll tell u roght here if ur brelvi or debandi inclined.
      "My dear heart never think you are better than others. Listen to their sorrows with compassion. If you want peace, don't harbour bad thoughts do not gossip and don't teach what you do not know." [Maulana Rumi]

    5. #23
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      Well, I don't think those four points are adequately defined in the first place.
      People may not be on the same page.

    6. #24
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      My purpose was not to go into any details, but those 4 points are the fundamental difference. Adequate definition is not the scope of this thread.
      My father believed that if the world found out who I really was they'd reject me out of fear.

    7. #25
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      Not defining those words is a big issue. Otherwise people will reply based on their own understanding, and others will abuse and ridicule them based on theirs.

      ---

      To me Deobandi and Barelvi does not matter as much as how people interpret ahadith, and how tolerant they are of people who disagree.
      This is the root cause of problems we face in our society in Pakistan.

    8. #26
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      My post was as impartial as it could be. By looking at my post, you cannot tell whose side I am on. And that was the goal. No one can go into details without being partial.
      My father believed that if the world found out who I really was they'd reject me out of fear.

    9. #27
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      ok.

    10. #28
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      Moderator's Note:
      Stay on topic guys
      Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment.

    11. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by cricketplaya View Post
      example?
      For example, some deobandis don't allow khatam/milad but some do.

      Quote Originally Posted by Fbi786 View Post
      tlk ur right with ur views however, if one has lack of knowledge then no point me discussing this further

      Secondly, i wana ak hareem what ur aqeeda is on the 4 points tlk mentioned.. And i ll tell u roght here if ur brelvi or debandi inclined.
      My understanding is similar to that of khoji's, only I wouldn't keep a chair for the Prophet(SAW) to sit down as I believe he(SAW) doesn't need a physical object to sit down. But there might be other reasons for keeping the chair there, may be Brelvis do this out of respect for the Prophet(SAW), which is fine.

      About Prophet being Noori or Khaaki, he(SAW) was son of Adam(AS) and a human like us but he was very special and he was the best of all. He was noor(light) in a metaphorical way.
      "Listen to many, speak to a few." William Shakespeare

    12. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by hareem01 View Post
      For example, some deobandis don't allow khatam/milad but some do.
      That's somewhat true because deobandis find that mawlids are being used as a platform to promote bad practices. Just have to look in Pakistan/India, so many things going on against sharia in these gatherings. So, it's best as our scholars point out to stay away from these gatherings altogether/ stay away from a thing which would lead one to bidah. To me it makes sense...
      on the other hand, there are many mawlids that happen without the need of much bollywood influence. Just look at Shaykh Hamza Yusuf and his school. =)
      I find that barelvis are more lax on these issues.. whereas deobandis are stricter.

      Quote Originally Posted by hareem01
      My understanding is similar to that of khoji's, only I wouldn't keep a chair for the Prophet(SAW) to sit down as I believe he(SAW) doesn't need a physical object to sit down. But there might be other reasons for keeping the chair there, may be Brelvis do this out of respect for the Prophet(SAW), which is fine.

      About Prophet being Noori or Khaaki, he(SAW) was son of Adam(AS) and a human like us but he was very special and he was the best of all. He was noor(light) in a metaphorical way.
      In a metaphorical way? The barelvis say he's present at the gatherings, not metaphorically though. And about the chair, some do believe he sits on the chair..... ;(

      One more issue I have with barelvis is that they promote tawassul too much.... which leads people to shirk often (just look in subcontinent) hate to say this but they lead to a path that shias have taken.. That and other reasons why barelvis are looked upon badly. Fine, have love for awliya but don't go overboard. Deobandis on the other hand keep strict position on this. You won't hear any deobandi saying "ya rasullullah" in every dua of his nor any gathering.

    13. #31
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      cricket:
      That's somewhat true because deobandis find that mawlids are being used as a platform to promote bad practices.
      Then you should strive to eliminate the "bad practices" instead of scrapping the whole milads.
      I think you are only using this as an excuse to stop milads. Because I have not seen any deobandi being against the concept of violence even though there are many groups among deobandis who do condone killing of innocent people if they disagree.

      The barelvis say he's present at the gatherings, not metaphorically though.
      But not everyone thinks that way. How can you use opinions of some to condemn a community in general?

    14. #32
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      I have problem deobandis bringing the Prophet down to our level by saying "Rasool ham jesa".

      cricketp:
      One more issue I have with barelvis is that they promote tawassul too much....
      I don't know what you mean by 'shirk' but the concept of tawassul is not against Islam in anyway.

      That and other reasons why barelvis are looked upon badly.
      Unfortunately, such "bad looks" lead to violence and fasaad in the name of Islam.
      Last edited by khoji; May 8th, 2010 at 10:45 AM.

    15. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by cricketplaya View Post
      That's somewhat true because deobandis find that mawlids are being used as a platform to promote bad practices. Just have to look in Pakistan/India, so many things going on against sharia in these gatherings. So, it's best as our scholars point out to stay away from these gatherings altogether/ stay away from a thing which would lead one to bidah. To me it makes sense...
      on the other hand, there are many mawlids that happen without the need of much bollywood influence. Just look at Shaykh Hamza Yusuf and his school. =)
      I find that barelvis are more lax on these issues.. whereas deobandis are stricter.
      I agree.


      Quote Originally Posted by cricketplaya View Post
      In a metaphorical way? The barelvis say he's present at the gatherings, not metaphorically though. And about the chair, some do believe he sits on the chair..... ;(

      One more issue I have with barelvis is that they promote tawassul too much.... which leads people to shirk often (just look in subcontinent) hate to say this but they lead to a path that shias have taken.. That and other reasons why barelvis are looked upon badly. Fine, have love for awliya but don't go overboard. Deobandis on the other hand keep strict position on this. You won't hear any deobandi saying "ya rasullullah" in every dua of his nor any gathering.
      I gave the metaphore example regarding the "noor" only.

      His(SAW) presence in dhikr gatherings is not metaphorical, it's the same feeling as seeing him in the dream but with open eyes(at least that's how I understood it) and only pious people can see him and talk to him(SAW) this way.

      I agree that some brelvis go overboard but I'm not in a position to judge them because i don't know their intentions.

      Also, there's nothing wrong in saying "Ya Rasul Allah" and it'd be a shame not hearing this in a deobandi gathering.
      "Listen to many, speak to a few." William Shakespeare

    16. #34
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      Peace

      I was bought up going to a Deobandi masjid and now I attend gatherings that are mainly of Barelvi members. I believe there are some things that need to be clarified:

      a) Barelvi's say some things against Deobandi's that are not true and Deobandi's say some things against Barelvi's that are not true.

      b) There are two important factors regarding an act. The physical appearance and the intention.

      c) Deobandis inclined more literally get confused with the love Barelvis show likewise Barelvis get confused about the strictness the Deobandis view the Attributes of Allah.

      d) Barelvis think Deobandis and Wahabis are the same or similar. However according to the 'aqeedah both Barelvis and Deobandis are in fact Maturidi based, whereas Wahabis are Athari based. Also, Wahabis follow the madhab of Ahmad bin Hanbal (RA) whereas both Barelvis and Deobandis follow the madhab of Abu Hanifah (RA). So Barelvis and Deobandis are or should be closer to each other. I guess it has something to do with local rivalry like football teams.

      e) The chair - it does not exist in the Barelvi gatherings that I attend !!!

      f) Deobandis do love Muhammad (SAW) and they never do toheen, it only appears that way to the Barelvis.


      Huqqooq Al 'ibad - What are the rights of Muhammad (SAW) over us and how do we view his existence?

      In my humble journey I have found that Deobandis tend to have more knowledge regarding hadith and hence trump the average Barelvi causing people to leave esoteric and custom/tradition based activity. In fact many customs are indeed based on sahih traditions but it requires more depth to find them, the poor Barelvis are so duped in their fellowship of their leaders they often fail to ask the source of the information they are given. They view it as a form of disrespect, but this way they cannot defend themselves either. Coming from a Deobandi background has helped me take what I am given from the Barelvis and instead of asking around I listen and then check things up for myself. I have found many things that I first felt were unacceptable are based on coherent traditions - such as khatams/dhikrs/mawlids.

      Also to finish I have sat with both learned Deobandis and learned Barelvis and not only do they call each other brothers ... they even pray together !!! When I say learned I mean 'alims - you know mawlvis ... but the crowds outshine their leaders on both sides of the fence. LOL
      The Prophet(SAW) said:
      "I am leaving you two things and you will never go astray as long as you cling to them -- they are the Book of Allah and my Sunnah." [Reported by Al- Haakim - Sahih].

    17. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by khoji View Post
      I have problem deobandis bringing the Prophet down to our level by saying "Rasool ham jesa".

      cricketp:

      I don't know what you mean by 'shirk' but the concept of tawassul is not against Islam in anyway.


      Unfortunately, such "bad looks" lead to violence and fasaad in the name of Islam.
      Thats such a lie, deobandis do not bring Prophet pbuh down astaghfirullah, they love and adore him.

      You mena violence like "Izlamic" republic of iran unleashes on bahais.
      The one who isn't confused, does not, really understand the problem.

    18. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by khoji View Post
      cricket:

      Then you should strive to eliminate the "bad practices" instead of scrapping the whole milads.
      I think you are only using this as an excuse to stop milads. Because I have not seen any deobandi being against the concept of violence even though there are many groups among deobandis who do condone killing of innocent people if they disagree.
      The deobandis who oppose milads in the subcontinent context, you know as well as I that in the subcontinent that the laymen(me and you) put the tariqa first before sharia, not the other way around. Which leads to bad practices. It's well known that one should avoid something which would lead to something bad.. Deobandis do celebrate mawlid, it may not be on the 12th of Rabi ul awwal, it can be any day of the week all throughout the year.

      Do check what Mufti Taqi Usmani sahab and other deobandi ulema have to say in regards to mawlid:
      http://www.albalagh.net/qa/milad_qa.shtml
      http://www.albalagh.net/qa/milad_qa2.shtml
      Quote Originally Posted by khoji View Post

      I don't know what you mean by 'shirk' but the concept of tawassul is not against Islam in anyway.

      That's what I said too, all I said was it shouldn't be promoted as much (make sense?) You can clearly see the signs of shirk especially in the subcontinent with all these mazaars.. the laymen are told not to make dua directly but still we do not know much hence we carry on our bad practices (add the influence of hindu traditions and you got a party)..
      One example, some believe it's ok to pray fajr after sunrise up until noon, which we all know is wrong, you'd be surprised how many still hold onto this belief. So, just like that, people give more importance to tawassul which lead to shirk. IMO both deobandi and barelvi ulema have emphasized on this but the laymen on both sides are too caught up with their egos to understand this simple concept. [I was guilty of this too.]

      Anyway,, I agree with psyah bro.
      Both Deobandi and Barelvi ulema should be respected and we laymen shouldn't be calling each other kafir based on some differences. The Ulema have much respect for each other, who are we do decide anything?


      Shaykh Gibril Haddad sums it up :

      Quote Originally Posted by Shaykh Gibril Haddad

      There is no difference in the generalities of `Aqida and Fiqh between Barelwis and Deobandis. They are both Sunni Hanafis, Sufis, Ash`aris or Maturidis. One stands in need of the best each school has to offer, as indeed hold many of the living prestigious teachers known to both sides.

      Among the best commentaries on Sahih Muslim and the Sunan of al-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud are works by the Deobandis. The Lives of the Sahaba by al-Kandihlawi is a masterpiece. I`la'al-Sunan and Aathaar al-Sunan are very valuable. As for Imam Ahmad Rida Khan and his works, whoever does not recognize their worth as one of the treasures of this Umma is a blasted nincompoop who should wear a dunce cap until he learns.

      Both sides are strict Hanafis and mainstream Sufis. We do not endorse the mistakes that anyone might have made, such as uttering words rightly perceived to lack adab in matters of `Aqida or contesting the legality of celebrating Mawlid.

      Nor do we endorse Takfir. Demonization of the other, saying they are munafiq is unacceptable. We leave extremism to Najd and its minions. Come together. Sayyid Muhammad `Alawi al-Maliki advised you to do so, Sayyid Yusuf al-Rifa`i advised you, Shaykh `Abd al-Hadi Kharsa advised you, Sayyid Ya`qubi, Dr. al-Nass, others... Do you think you stand for the honor of Allah and His Prophet more than such as these? Think again.

      When the situation is such that there is mutual avoidance at mosques, gatherings, etc. then it becomes wajib for every true and sincere Deobandi should seek out his counterparts among Barelwis and for every true and sincere Barelwi to seek out his counterparts among Deobandis, pray together, learn from one another, give salam, and increase love. Disunity is sin. Or are you afraid you will lose reputation or funding? Shame.

      Here is the resting-place of Shaykh `Abd al-Qadir Gilani and Imam Abu Hanifa bracing for another Mongoloid onslaught. Will you Sunnis still be debating and anathematizing one another because of who said what as the Hour rises? Stressing ikhtilaf and schism is from Shaytan. If this is what the general public chooses to follow, it is their loss even as they shout ALLAHU AKBAR and YA RASULALLAH from God's dawn to the wee hours.

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