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    1. #37
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      I truly, truly wonder which wives, and under what circumstances, give their husband's permission to remarry while they are still married too?
      - Somebody stop me!

    2. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatic View Post
      A woman just has to go through the khulla process! A man has to live with another woman for all his life. Kharchay and more responsibilities and more bachay. At least this way the world knows he was very desperate and he has to face some amount of ridicule too and possibly taanay all his life..pehli biwi k sath bhi aise kerte thay and us ka to kheyal hoga mera nahi hai and a string of other complaints

      At least that way he isn't just fooling around with some other woman and yet outwardly living in the same loveless marriage.

      A woman doesn't have to live with her husband all HER life? Why do you make it seem like that a woman is nothing more than a good pet? She could be in a loveless marriage too. She should be able to marry another man too and keep cooking for both of them. Why doesn't the world care what a woman goes through? It's ok for her to stay in a loveless marriage or ASK for khulla yet a man can just get another wife making the first one a prisoner in her own home. Great logic!


      What if this happens to you, Enigmatic?

      what if your husband one day marries another woman without even informing you of his intentions and just tells you it's his religious right? Why does it all of a sudden make sense just because it's "religiously" allowed?

      The fact that polygamy is even permitted actually leads to more extra marital affairs. A man would never stop checking out a woman he's interested in and would even take the initiative to get to know her because there's a law that allows him to marry her and there are no serious consequences other than just some tanay idhar udhar. Could you really compare that to the emotions of a woman who now feels completely worthless?

      This is unbelievable. logic really goes out the window when religion comes in the picture. People make all kinds of excuses for something that is so obviously IMMORAL!
      LucyMay likes this.
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    3. #39
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      I can think of one a few situations.
      1. She is not able to conceive.
      2. She is so sick or handicapped that she cannot perform wifely duties and take care of the kids and husband.
      3. They are so rich that she does not care if he has one or four wives.
      4. For some reasons he wants a divorce and she wants to stay in marriage for sake of kids , her insecurities etc.
      Fools never disagree.

    4. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by DaffyDuck View Post
      I truly, truly wonder which wives, and under what circumstances, give their husband's permission to remarry while they are still married too?
      Plenty of Arab women....

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      Quote Originally Posted by Mirch View Post
      The verses of Quran which permit polygamy do not have this restriction
      "If you fear that you shall not be able to deal
      justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if you fear
      that you shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one" (Quran
      4:3).
      There is no hadees to indicate that a husband needs second wife's permission.

      Well, Mirch, if you have read out the last address of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), so you might have noticed that they have narrated that "You have rights over your wives and your wives have rights over you".

      Under the light of these Golden words, one thing is quite clear and no need to go in depth, that she has right over you, right of asking, right of saying, right in your affairs, personal or not personal, she is your life and complete part of your life, how could you say that her permission is not necessary?.

      Hven't you heard or read that Hadis, whose theme is that (Tum me se sab se Acha woh he jo apne gher walo k sath acha he).

      Acha person is not who do everything without taking permission of his wife especially. No women in this world want to share her love.

      hhhhh, its very lengthy debate to discuss. but ultimately, its not as that go and marry and don't ask from first wife.

    6. #42
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      This kind of twisted logic is used by Christian Missionaries too who say that Quran says that All Muslims will go to hell.
      With the help of twisted logic I or you can prove anything for example look below:

      • There will be no one of you who will not enter it (Hell).
        This was an inevitable decree of your Lord.
        Afterwards he may save some of the pious, God-fearing Muslims out of the burning fire.
        -- Sura 19:71-72

      Or as Arberry translates it more literally:


      • No one of you there is, but he shall go down to it; That for thy Lord is a thing decreed, determined. Then We shall deliver those that were god-fearing; and the evildoers We shall leave there, hobbling on their knees.
        -- Sura 19:71-72

      This verse tells clearly that all Muslims [everybody] will go to Hell, (inevitable, decreed, determined) and only some of them will eventually be rescued from Hell, while others will be left there forever.
      Obviously, it cannot be that all go through hell (Sura 19:71) and that martyrs go directly to paradise, being spared hell, and "they live (present tense), finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord."


      Besides being contradictory, Sura 19:71-72 must be incredibly disturbing to Muslims, who can only look forward to go to Hell when they die. At least it was disturbing to Sultan Muhammad Khan, who was moved to carefully study everything that Islam says about salvation and later became a Christian because of his research. You can read about this in his testimony.
      Side remark on Sura 9:111 stating that "theirs is the garden: they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah?" -- There are no such passages in the Torah or the Gospel which promise paradise to those slain in a military battle for God. This is another false claim in the Qur'an. I am not sure there is even any such concept as us fighting a military battle for God. It is usually God who fights for us. God is much more powerful and glorious that he needs our weapons or strength to fight for him.
      Fools never disagree.

    7. #43
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      Quote Originally Posted by Mirch View Post
      I can think of one a few situations.
      1. She is not able to conceive.
      Adoption? Should a woman be allowed to sleep with another man given her husband is sterile? immoral!

      2. She is so sick or handicapped that she cannot perform wifely duties and take care of the kids and husband.
      Hire a maid? If a husband is not capable of earning money, shouldn't she be able to marry a 2nd husband? Immoral!

      3. They are so rich that she does not care if he has one or four wives.
      Work on the existing marriage? Should he not care either if she wants to marry another man and stay in this marriage too?

      4. For some reasons he wants a divorce and she wants to stay in marriage for sake of kids , her insecurities etc.
      then he's an A-hole for not caring about his children and wife. This is the case most of the time. The man falls for another woman but is still married and would opt for divorce first but since the poor wife has no place to go since she is too busy taking care of HIS children and cooking and cleaning for him. She really has no choice but to be OK with him bringing a sautan on her. Pathetic excuse for a human being.

      Argh..I am so mad! I need to cool down.. I am out of here and not returning ever (ok maybe later)
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    8. #44
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      Quote Originally Posted by Theorist View Post

      Argh..I am so mad! I need to cool down.. I am out of here and not returning ever (ok maybe later)

      She wanted to know the scenarios when a women might allow her husband to go and marry another woman.
      These are the situations I know from life where it has happened.
      We are not discussing moral or immoral in this thread. Are we ?
      Yes you need to calm down and take a break from GS for some time. It is a Pakistani forum and Islam is religion of majority of people on these forums. Majority of people will not agree with your views, philosophy, ideology and beliefs and having a discussions with those who do not share your views , philosophy , ideology and beliefs gives you jitters then you will be better off by staying away from these discussions.
      Personally to me if someone is having a civilized discussion with me without use of any superlatives and giving me arguments against my views, beliefs, ideology and philosophy I have no qualms about it. It does not make my heart beat faster or gives me high blood pressure.
      If someone gets personal then I add them to my ignore list and that ends those discussions with them.
      I know you are not using those superlatives against me or my ideology , philosophy , views or beliefs but still you are using superlatives where they are not needed.
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    9. #45
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      Quote Originally Posted by Theorist View Post
      ........what if your husband one day marries another woman without even informing you of his intentions and just tells you it's his religious right? Why does it all of a sudden make sense just because it's "religiously" allowed?..........


      but then the nikah is not valid if he is not being fair and just to both wives because obviously he would have made one extremely unhappy......

    10. #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by Mirch View Post

      She wanted to know the scenarios when a women might allow her husband to go and marry another woman.
      These are the situations I know from life where it has happened.
      We are not discussing moral or immoral in this thread. Are we ?
      Yes you need to calm down and take a break from GS for some time. It is a Pakistani forum and Islam is religion of majority of people on these forums. Majority of people will not agree with your views, philosophy, ideology and beliefs and having a discussions with those who do not share your views , philosophy , ideology and beliefs gives you jitters then you will be better off by staying away from these discussions.
      Personally to me if someone is having a civilized discussion with me without use of any superlatives and giving me arguments against my views, beliefs, ideology and philosophy I have no qualms about it. It does not make my heart beat faster or gives me high blood pressure.
      If someone gets personal then I add them to my ignore list and that ends those discussions with them.
      I know you are not using those superlatives against me or my ideology , philosophy , views or beliefs but still you are using superlatives where they are not needed.
      You are right. I am sorry..

      I just get so frustrated sometimes. I am still in the process of learning to respect others' opinions.
      Mirch likes this.
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    11. #47
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      Quote Originally Posted by Theorist View Post
      You are right. I am sorry..

      I just get so frustrated sometimes. I am still in the process of learning to respect others' opinions.

      Apology accepted . Just because I enjoy discussions with smart folks only.
      Fools never disagree.

    12. #48
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      Thanks!
      "Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking." ~ Steve Jobs

    13. #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by Theorist View Post

      A woman doesn't have to live with her husband all HER life? Why do you make it seem like that a woman is nothing more than a good pet? She could be in a loveless marriage too. She should be able to marry another man too and keep cooking for both of them. Why doesn't the world care what a woman goes through? It's ok for her to stay in a loveless marriage or ASK for khulla yet a man can just get another wife making the first one a prisoner in her own home. Great logic!


      What if this happens to you, Enigmatic?

      what if your husband one day marries another woman without even informing you of his intentions and just tells you it's his religious right? Why does it all of a sudden make sense just because it's "religiously" allowed?

      The fact that polygamy is even permitted actually leads to more extra marital affairs. A man would never stop checking out a woman he's interested in and would even take the initiative to get to know her because there's a law that allows him to marry her and there are no serious consequences other than just some tanay idhar udhar. Could you really compare that to the emotions of a woman who now feels completely worthless?

      This is unbelievable. logic really goes out the window when religion comes in the picture. People make all kinds of excuses for something that is so obviously IMMORAL!
      Relaaaxxx @Theorist ! You are thinking on a complete opposite level. But at least am looking at your POV with a calm mind. Even I used to think exactly the same way a year or two back..and I believed that this ruling of Islam was very discriminating.

      I just have a question: I say am an average non-religious person and I don't drink alcohol or I don't believe in being sexually active other than that one person whom I would marry or be in a long time relationship because I believe that:
      -alcohol is detrimental to my health (no religious reasons here just pure medical knowledge of alcohol leading to serious liver diseases).
      -i am afraid of getting STDs or unwanted pregnancies out of wedlock
      But where I live drinking alcohol or being sexually active is allowed as per law. Just because I am allowed to drink would I do it?

      When we marry someone we know that we can leave them if we want. Men have a right to divorce as well and women can ask for it too (in Islam) and legally either of them could divorce each other. Since it is allowed isn't that unfair too? And since legally we have a free will over that too would you want to divorce your husband just for the sake of it being lawful?

      So even if polygamy is permissible in Islam, it doesn't mean every sane man would want to marry twice or thrice etc. And about you saying that a woman too should be allowed to be in a polygamous marriage. I think it's ridiculous. For her it would mean double the responsiblity double the chance of getting through birth issues, double homes to look after and two people to please at the same time. How can she balance that now? And frankly can we imagine being intimate and in love with two people at the same time? For me it is unthinkable.

      Men are allowed to marry only and only if they think they can balance equally b/w all his wives. Which ofcourse isn't easy. Even Allah Himself has warned that:

      And you will never be able to be equal [in feeling] between wives, even if you should strive [to do so]. So do not incline completely [toward one] and leave another hanging. And if you amend [your affairs] and fear Allah - then indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful (4:129)



      and in this other verse which has already been mentioned it is said that IF you can't do justice then marry only one wife. So if a person is remarrying without any valid reason, and not being equal with both wives..then he is actually sinning. We shouldn't blame some men's psychotic thinking and exploiting religion to their convenience to religion itself IMO.

      And the reason I believe polygamy is permissible is:

      Supposedly if a married man fears sinning or getting into an extra marital affair he should openly marry that woman and be responsible for both of them financially and legally as well as emotionally and physically. (and it really isn't easy and in this way he's accountable to two whole families)

      Remember the thread in Life1 where this lady said that the guy is going to marry somebody else but would be living with her too. We all were appalled at the lack of that lady's self esteem and self worth. Now if he had the balls and guts and if he follows Islam accurately then polygamy in this case could have helped that woman and prevented her from living in sin and would have given her future children a name, home and financial support etc.
      Train this chaos, turn it into light . . .

    14. #50
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      ^You got it all wrong. My problem is why is this injustice even allowed from the divine. We are not talking about some men making whatever rules they felt suited them best. we are talking about the almighty, omnipotent God. For this reason, I don't believe an all knowing God could be this cruel.

      Just because something is allowed doesn't mean we should do it but the thought is certainly there. Polygamy would be just as hard on a man as it would be on a woman. AND it is a request/recommendation from God to treat all wives equally more than it's a condition. The truth is there is no good reason for it.
      "Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking." ~ Steve Jobs

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      Hmmm....my thread got derailed. I only wanted to the Islamic stance as to whether a wife's permission was needed or not.

      But I do think there is some confusion as to whether the wife must be informed or not. It seems like there is a difference of opinion.
      Being a princess is a full-time job, but someone has to do it.
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    16. #52
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      ^yes there is ..but I gave my answer and a few points in support of the informing bit ....but then again am no scholar so I cant say much
      Train this chaos, turn it into light . . .

    17. #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by Disney Princess View Post
      Hmmm....my thread got derailed. I only wanted to the Islamic stance as to whether a wife's permission was needed or not.

      But I do think there is some confusion as to whether the wife must be informed or not. It seems like there is a difference of opinion.
      Aisi thread kyon kholi? Ghalati to aap ki hai na!
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    18. #54
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      Peace Theorist,

      Hence you are not a Muslim and the points you raised seems fairly but I suggest you to ask from a qualified scholar who can answer you in details with more positive way. I would like to answer to you first Para at post # 50. Hope this will help others members too who raised same points but slightly in different way.

      Allah SWT said in Holy Quran Chapter 2 verse 228 " Divorced women remain in waiting for three periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allah has created in their wombs if they believe in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have more right to take them back in this [period] if they want reconciliation. And due to the wives is similar to what is expected of them, according to what is reasonable. But the men have a degree over them [in responsibility and authority]. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise."

      The difference in economic position between the sexes makes the man's rights and liabilities a little greater than the woman's, subject to this, the sexes are on terms of equality in law, and in certain matters the weaker sex is entitled to special protection.

      Moreover Allah SWT said in Chapter 4 verse 34: "Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. Sorighteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand."

      This verse refers to the duty of the man to maintain the woman, and to a certain difference in nature between the sexes. In this verse an arabic word "Qawwam", means one who stands firm in another's business (the husband's interest) in his absence, as Allah SWT has protected them. If we take the rendering as in the text, the meaning is: the good wife is obeident and harmonious in her husband's presence, and in his absence guards his reputation and property and her own virtue, as ordained by Allah SWT. If we take the rendering as in the note, we reach the same result in a different way; the good wife, in her husband's absence, remembering how Allah SWT has given her a sheltered position, does everything to justify that position by guarding her own virtue and his reputation and property.

      In my previous post, I already quoted and wrote details of the verse 3 Chapter 4. We are all here to seek knowledge. My knowledge is less and i'm not here to win this debate nor i think anyone else trying to win this debate tactically playing with his/her words.
      Last edited by lethal kamikaze; Sep 15th, 2011 at 07:17 PM.
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