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    1. #1
      nothing man
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      ravage's Avatar
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      I have a question about miracles.

      In the Quran there is the story about the golden calf. Hazrat Musa leaves bani israel for a bit, a guy constructs a calf made from gold and makes it talk (i think). When Hazrat Musa comes back his people have bought the "miracle" and are worshipping it instead of Musa's God.

      I've read a story of a Hindu idol that was supposed to be the real deal because the idol "cried", which turned out to be a secretion from the material the statue was constructed from. However, those who believed in it believed in it as a miracle, since they had no rational explanation for it.

      On the other hand, theres so many stories of miracles offered by Allah's messengers as proof of their message. Prophets carried miracles with them, and there is condemnation for those who reject Allah's signs (which could also include miracles)

      Now, suppose someone comes along and shows you a "miracle". Suppose further you've exhausted scientific means to explain it such as chance occurrence etc to the extent of the scientific knowledge you have. Finally suppose that it challenges some of your currently held beliefs. What is the Islamic approach to it.
      Din-e-Mullah fee sabeelillah fasad (Allama Iqbal)

    2. #2
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      Well the problem with other religions are that they are just belief, they dont carry any proof. So its either you believe in it or you dont.

      Islam on the other hand is the only belief which also carries proof with it.... This is an amazing thing... Without proof belief cannot exist, and without belief proof cannot exist...

      So even if someone does come upto me and start explaining me some scientific means, the problem is that, that person will be start contradicting himself, cuz i will have my proof to show why I belief it that way.

    3. #3
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      Quote Originally Posted by Unreal
      Well the problem with other religions are that they are just belief, they dont carry any proof. So its either you believe in it or you dont.

      Islam on the other hand is the only belief which also carries proof with it.... This is an amazing thing... Without proof belief cannot exist, and without belief proof cannot exist...

      So even if someone does come upto me and start explaining me some scientific means, the problem is that, that person will be start contradicting himself, cuz i will have my proof to show why I belief it that way.
      Unreal, I am interested to know about the proofs you have, are you interested to share these with me please???

    4. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by ravage
      Now, suppose someone comes along and shows you a "miracle". Suppose further you've exhausted scientific means to explain it such as chance occurrence etc to the extent of the scientific knowledge you have. Finally suppose that it challenges some of your currently held beliefs. What is the Islamic approach to it.
      Think of dajjal ....he will decieve people with miracles and try to undermine their belief in Islam
      atleast this is what I feel

    5. #5
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      Hi salhu

      Ofcourse I have many proofs about my belief. But you should also take into consideration that what ever I am going to say, you are not just going ignore it, cuz otherwise there is no point of this discussion.

      lets start with God/Allah, Can you prove there is a God??

      ... first question is can you give me a proof that do you exist?? ofcourse you do, we use our 5 senses to figure that out. But this is not how we perceive God in Islam. In Islam we look at things God created, eg: universe

      lets start with universe... when you look at the universe (for example sun, moon, other planets) do you see order or do you see chous. If that one is hard to answer, lets start with an easier one.

      throw a glass or mirror from a high point, is it going to break into million pieces or will it turn into 2 more glasses. Or if a tornado goes throu a junk yard, is it possible that all that junk will come out as a brand new BMW (now we will all like it that way).

      Now go back to the universe concept: order or chous. Or when you look throu a microscope do you see: order or chous. By now you should be able to answer those questions.

      So you see there has to be a creator of all this creation. I started with this question because in order to understand Islam, you have to understand the "existence of God"

      Above is one big proof, dont want to dump in all the proofs at once.

      lookin forward to your response.

      Source: i read these proofs long time ago, not my own created ones.

    6. #6
      rnoderator
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      The mention of the metaphor (in the Quran) referring to the splitting of the atoms (fission), and the metaphor referring to electricity (light without combustion) is proof enough for me.
      I'm like the whole library in Kemet with Annunaki genetics!

    7. #7
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      In the message, it was very beautifully stated (when asked about the miracles of the Holy Prophet pbuh), the miracle of the Holy Prophet pbuh is the Quran! He did not rely on supernatural/unusual miracles to convince people, he used his character, message, and personality to do so, and I dont know about you guys but to me this was more powerful than turning a stick into a snake.

    8. #8
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      exactly
      ulama says:
      If you see a man walking on the water and flying in the sky......do not believe him until you see his character,his rightous good deeds ect

    9. #9
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      Miracles, islamically are always associated with a prophets!..........

    10. #10
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      Das Reich, I dont understand then. How do you determine the validity of a miracle? If dajjal is going to be showing miracles, why were the Prophets showing miracles as proof?

      others...the fact that the miracle of the Prophet is the Quran does not invalidate the fact that other Prophets brought miracles as proof. Remember bani israel asked the Prophets for miracles as proof, and they brought them.
      Din-e-Mullah fee sabeelillah fasad (Allama Iqbal)

    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by ravage
      Das Reich, I dont understand then. How do you determine the validity of a miracle? If dajjal is going to be showing miracles, why were the Prophets showing miracles as proof?

      .
      I see what you are getting at,valid argument
      my views are
      dajjal will come after the LAST prophet so we know that there are no more Prophets coming after him
      Prophets when performing the miracles did so they can prove the existance of God and give warnings(they never claimed to be divine themselves), dajjal on the other hand after showing miracles will claim to be God himself and deny the God of the previous prophets

    12. #12
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      i see, but the problem I have with that is that you're expressing your beliefs as a Muslim and saying you will only buy into and believe in miracles that dont conflict with your Islamic beliefs. What fault would a Christian have if he said that he would only believe in miracles that dont impinge on the Lord Jesus's divine status?
      Din-e-Mullah fee sabeelillah fasad (Allama Iqbal)

    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by ravage
      Das Reich, I dont understand then. How do you determine the validity of a miracle? If dajjal is going to be showing miracles, why were the Prophets showing miracles as proof?

      others...the fact that the miracle of the Prophet is the Quran does not invalidate the fact that other Prophets brought miracles as proof. Remember bani israel asked the Prophets for miracles as proof, and they brought them.
      I don't have the refernce but the prophecy goes something like dajjal will be showing miracles using the latest technology of the time, which general public wont be aware of.

    14. #14
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      that doesnt solve my problem, since as far as the common man is concerned the "miracle" is something that is beyond his power to explain. Whether the source is divine or technological doesnt impact the argument..
      Din-e-Mullah fee sabeelillah fasad (Allama Iqbal)

    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by ravage
      . What fault would a Christian have if he said that he would only believe in miracles that dont impinge on the Lord Jesus's divine status?
      another good question, I dont have an answer .....anybody?

    16. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by ravage
      that doesnt solve my problem, since as far as the common man is concerned the "miracle" is something that is beyond his power to explain. Whether the source is divine or technological doesnt impact the argument..
      For common man it might be a miracle (lack of knowledge) but not for everyone, where as a true miracle is inexplicable to all laws of nature.

    17. #17
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      suppose Im common man then. i've exhausted all resources i have to explain a "miracle". how do i know if what im seeing is a genuine miracle or merely my lack of knowledge? the lack of knowledge argument is what agnostic in nature, and the same could be reasonably said by those offered divine miracles from Allah, that we dont know how to explain these miracles, but maybe its just lack of knowledge?
      Din-e-Mullah fee sabeelillah fasad (Allama Iqbal)

    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by Unreal
      Hi salhu

      Ofcourse I have many proofs about my belief. But you should also take into consideration that what ever I am going to say, you are not just going ignore it, cuz otherwise there is no point of this discussion.

      lets start with God/Allah, Can you prove there is a God??

      ... first question is can you give me a proof that do you exist?? ofcourse you do, we use our 5 senses to figure that out. But this is not how we perceive God in Islam. In Islam we look at things God created, eg: universe

      lets start with universe... when you look at the universe (for example sun, moon, other planets) do you see order or do you see chous. If that one is hard to answer, lets start with an easier one.

      throw a glass or mirror from a high point, is it going to break into million pieces or will it turn into 2 more glasses. Or if a tornado goes throu a junk yard, is it possible that all that junk will come out as a brand new BMW (now we will all like it that way).

      Now go back to the universe concept: order or chous. Or when you look throu a microscope do you see: order or chous. By now you should be able to answer those questions.

      So you see there has to be a creator of all this creation. I started with this question because in order to understand Islam, you have to understand the "existence of God"

      Above is one big proof, dont want to dump in all the proofs at once.

      lookin forward to your response.

      Source: i read these proofs long time ago, not my own created ones.


      Whats the matter with you man. So want to say that other religions can not give the same answer you printed above. And that this is a miracle associated only with islam. I think you should try me and dump all the proofs right away, i am waiting.......

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