^Does Quran indicate in any way who these people of knowledge might be?

Originally Posted by submitmj

I presented a very strong argument in the post and you have not addressed it at all. You just come up with all sorts of fancy words to justify your position of upholding 'other' sources of religious guidance next to Quran. The bottom line is that GOD says the Quran is complete and fully detailed. Don't you trust GOD.

I asked you to show your proof. I asked you to present the verses in the Quran and/or GOD's previous scriptures that says it is OKAY to uphold the words of men (hadith & Sunnah) over the WORD of GOD, and you simply CANNOT. The Quran is very clear, but you disregard them in order to follow fabricated man-made doctrines falsely attributed to Muhammad.

If you have an Quranic basis, show the verses. That is all I am requesting. Show your proof in Quran, but cannot.


Hadith & Sunna: Fabrications by the Prophet's Enemies

[Quran 6:112] We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.

Important Criterion
[6:113] This is to let the minds of those who do not believe in the Hereafter listen to such fabrications, and accept them, and thus expose their real convictions.*


Quran: Fully Detailed*
[6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?* Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.


[6:115] The word of your Lord is complete,* in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.


[6:116] If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.

Peace
submitmj

Peace again submitmj

First of all you are calling me an ememy of the prophet Muhammad (SAW) by insinuating I have given "fancy words" - nice try, but how can I be his (SAW) enemy when I love him and hold fast to his Sunnah that is proven to be authentic in the same way the Qur'an is proven to be authentic?

Next the verse 6:113 talks about those enemies being people who do NOT believe in the Hereafter. There is nothing in the Hereafter that I doubt so you must admit you are wrong here also.

For verse 114 - "as a source of law" is a mistranslation ... this should be "as a Judge" it is talking about those people who doubt in the Word of God. I have no doubt in his Word and hence this does not apply to me again.

Next we have in verse 6:115

Wa Tammat - And perfected

This is the correct translation it is not correct to insert the word COMPLETE here ... Also read up the verse Al-Kahf 109

"Say you, 'if the sea be the ink for the words of my Lord, then necessarily, the sea would be exhausted and the words of my Lord would not come to an end, though We may bring the like of it for help.'"

By modifying the meaning of the Qur'an you are limiting the Word of God to The Qur'an. Rather The Qur'an is a perfected Word and your mistranslation is causing problems with this other verse from the same Book.

Verse 116 - The majority of people on this earth is not equivalent to following the scholars. Rather this verse is evidence against democracy to which I believe the 'Submitters' actually are in support of.

I hope you are more satisfied with this response than my previous one. And May Allah (SWT) Guide us all.

Originally Posted by psyah

Peace again submitmj

First of all you are calling me an ememy of the prophet Muhammad (SAW) by insinuating I have given "fancy words" - nice try, but how can I be his (SAW) enemy when I love him and hold fast to his Sunnah that is proven to be authentic in the same way the Qur'an is proven to be authentic?

1) First of all, I'm referring to religious scholars who uphold falsehood and attribute it to GOD and Quran. As well as those who initially collected and created the fabricated Hadiths and Sunnah 200+ years after his death.

Next the verse 6:113 talks about those enemies being people who do NOT believe in the Hereafter. There is nothing in the Hereafter that I doubt so you must admit you are wrong here also.

2) The Quran is very clear that those who do not believe in the hereafter will not uphold the WOrd of GOD. Let me ask you...do you believe the QUran is to be the only source of religious guidance? Yes or no?

I have been waiting for verses to be presented that say it is okay to uphold another source of religious guidance next to Quran. Some were presented, but was easily debunked with the Quranic verses themselves. So, I am still awaiting for the proof from the Quran.

Peace
Submitmj

Originally Posted by Nussairee

^Does Quran indicate in any way who these people of knowledge might be?

[Quran 56:76] This is an oath, if you only knew, that is awesome.*

[56:77] This is an honorable Quran.
[56:78] In a protected book.
[56:79] None can grasp it except the sincere.*

So, only those who are sincere can understand Quran. After all, GOD asks us many times if we wish to learn the Quran as HE made it easy to learn (contrary to the popular belief that no human can understand it).

[Quran 54:17] We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?
[54:22] We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?
[54:32] We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?
[54:40] We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?

As well, GOD states that HE is the teacher of the Quran, NOT the Mullahs.

[Quran 55:1] The Most Gracious.
[55:2] Teacher of the Quran.

And if we want to increase our knowledge we must implore GOD.

[Quran 20:114] Most Exalted is GOD, the only true King. Do not rush into uttering the Quran before it is revealed to you, and say, "My Lord, increase my knowledge."

So, those who follow conjecture (hadiths / Sunnah) are not sincere according to the Quran.

Peace
submitmj

You're accusing others of "twisting" verses of Quran. Yet you so conveniently use verses that seem to "support" your view. How are we to know that you're not "twisting" the verses because it seems like you are just interpreting them the way you want?

Or are you claiming that your interpretation is the most righteous among millions of muslims who believe in Quran and live according to Sunnah (which is practical essence of Quran)?

I hope for the sake of humility and all that Quran teaches, you don't believe you're the only right one and everyone else for centuries has been wrong.

^which English traslation of the Holy Quran are you using?

Originally Posted by vigoratus

You're accusing others of "twisting" verses of Quran. Yet you so conveniently use verses that seem to "support" your view. How are we to know that you're not "twisting" the verses because it seems like you are just interpreting them the way you want?

Or are you claiming that your interpretation is the most righteous among millions of muslims who believe in Quran and live according to Sunnah (which is practical essence of Quran)?

I hope for the sake of humility and all that Quran teaches, you don't believe you're the only right one and everyone else for centuries has been wrong.

I'm not twisting anything, and my argument is right out of the Quran. I post clear verses and you say that I have an incorrect understanding? The verses are self-explanatory. The problem is that you look to 'other' sources to understand Quran, instead of trusting GOD when HE says many times in Sura 54 that HE made the QUran easy to learn, does any of you wish to learn? GOD is the teacher of the Quran (55:1-2), not fabricated hearsay. Muhammad was given the Quran and that was it, nothing more.

peace
submitmj

Originally Posted by Nussairee

^which English traslation of the Holy Quran are you using?

Quran The Final Testament, translated by Rashad Khalifa, Ph.D.

^almst evry Muslim person, let alone every scholar claims to be 1!

^Are you knowledgeable enough to understand and interpret the Qur'an? And can you please answer my following questions, thanks:

Originally Posted by AllahkaBanda

why do you trust the Qur'an, meaning it is persevered? Is it because the Qur'an says that trust me? If so, how do you know what Qur'an says in fact is correct and not written by men?

PS: amazing thing about hadith rejectors and modernists is that they are ignorant of history and despite the fact you tell them they are still stuck at "hadith came after 200 years" myth. Please educate yourself a bit before blindly copying pasting.

Originally Posted by submitmj

http://www.paklinks.com/gsmedia/thum...89/Had_one.gif

English Translation:
The Prophet said, "DO NOT write down anything from me EXCEPT QURAN"
[Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171, and Sahih Muslim]

http://www.paklinks.com/gsmedia/thum...89/Had_two.gif

English Translation:
This Hadith states that the Prophet MAINTAINED his ANTI-hadith stand until death.
[Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 192]

Funny how you are using hadith itself to prove that the prophet SAW was anti hadithall about picking and choosing whats suits your desires right?

Please stand in front of the mirror..and see...what exactly is your status in front of Imam Bukhari and other scholars of Islam who preserved the words of our prophet SAW?

The prophet SAW in another hadith stated..gist of which is..anyone who lied on his behalf should a confirm a seat for himself in the Fire of Hell!so watch it.

Originally Posted by hareem01

Well I don't so here goes your theory into the bin.

I am glad u dont.

Originally Posted by AllahkaBanda

PS: amazing thing about hadith rejectors and modernists is that they are ignorant of history and despite the fact you tell them they are still stuck at "hadith came after 200 years" myth. Please educate yourself a bit before blindly copying pasting.

Every human being on the planet knows that history books are ALWAYS written by the victors. So, you claim that I am ignorant of history is entirely incorrect. What you are saying is that history from hadith & sunnah (which DID come well after Muhammad's death) are more accurate about the contents and religious duties of the Quran, than the Quran itself.

Since, you believe I am ignorant of islamic history, here is an excellent video on the timeline of when Hadith & Sunnah came into the picture. (GOD willing, the link will show up).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe7_M...72B70E&index=2

The bottom line is the Quran is from GOD, and who should we trust? GOD's assertions via HIS revelations, or the man-made doctrine that came well after the Prophet died? By default, hadith & Sunnah could not possibly have come from the prophet.

Hadith & Sunnah is the cause of all the innovations falsely attributed to GOD and Muhammad. For example, ask yourself this....Since the all religious duties (salat, zakat, etc.) came from Abraham and Muhammd was enjoined to follow the religion of Abraham, do you really think Abraham would proclaim that 'Muhammad is the messenger of GOD' when he does his daily salat prayers? Muhammad wasn't even born yet. So, why do you put his name beside GOD in the Shahada when we are commanded not to make any distinctions among ANY of GOD's messengers?

Peace
Submitmj

Originally Posted by wonder_eyed

Funny how you are using hadith itself to prove that the prophet SAW was anti hadithall about picking and choosing whats suits your desires right?

I am not picking and choosing what suits my desires. I am simply showing the irony that you even have hadiths forbidding hadiths, yet you do not obey those 'sayings' of the prophet. How come? They are in perfect sync with the Quran. Why do you reject them?

So, the fact of the matter is that YOU ARE ONE picking and choosing which fabrications (hadith & Sunnah) to uphold based on what suits your desires.

submitmj

Originally Posted by submitmj

I am not picking and choosing what suits my desires. I am simply showing the irony that you even have hadiths forbidding hadiths, yet you do not obey those 'sayings' of the prophet. How come? They are in perfect sync with the Quran. Why do you reject them?

So, the fact of the matter is that YOU ARE ONE picking and choosing which fabrications (hadith & Sunnah) to uphold based on what suits your desires.

submitmj

But you're choosing to use one hadith to discredit the whole of Hadiths and practice of Sunnah. That's the epic irony.

How does that work anyways?

Please no shortcuts, or diversion to the answer by citing Quran. We've all heard what you said. And we've all said we uphold Quran to be the most supreme scripture. So,

Just answer it straight forward. Do you accept hadith or do you not? If you do not, then how can you cite the ONE hadith that support your point of view, and in the same breath go on to say "All hadith are fabrications"...very confusing.

It seems to me like you want everyone to agree with what you're saying, and hold true to YOUR interpretation of verses, while rejecting anything that disagrees with you. Why so extreme?