TLK

Thanks for great replies guys ..

although I respect everyone;s opnion, I like to share wordings of Mufti Ebrahim Desai

Jurists have stated that it is permissible to keep a dog for security purposes, farming and hunting.

off course one has to take care that the dog is kept outside the house

here is the whole article

Link

Mirch

Peace to you to.
Allah uses these words " in the manner directed to you by Allah " many a times and all the muffasir agree that by these words Allah means using our instincts which Allah has given us and which are ingrained in our nature.
Rasool Allah did not have a hunters training school , the hunters trained using age old methods of training hunting dogs for fetching the prey for their masters. There is no Islamic Hunting 101 or Islamic Hunting 401.
Inb khatir is also not quoting any Hadees saying that there is a hadees precribing the manner in which you train the dog to use just his feet to catch the prey and bring it to the master. He is implying that hunters trained the dogs to catch the prey and hold it till the master reaches to him. But the hunters use dogs to help them locate the hunted animal not for hunting prey. Falcons are used in this manner where they hunt the prey for their master. He is mentioning opinions of Muslim jurist there is no hadees to support this stance. I know from my talking to hunters and reading about how hunting is done using dogs , the dogs locates the hunted prey and then bring it to the hunter holding it in its jaws and I do not find any ruling or hadees against the manner in which a dog brings the hunted prey to his master. The logic dictates if a dog brings the prey using his jaws and mouth the prey is bound to be laced with his saliva.

There is one hadees which talks about washing a utensil licked by a dog.
From Muslim #Number 055
Ibn Mughaffal reported: The Messenger of Allah ordered killing of the dogs, and then said: What about them, i. e. about other dogs? and then granted concession (to keep) the dog for hunting and the dog for (the security) of the herd, and said: When the dog licks the utensil, wash it seven times, and rub it with earth the eighth time.

Ulemas of hadees say that the dogs were asked to be killed during the times when they were spreading rabies and when it was established that it was limited to certain dogs then the exception was issued. I guess the washing of utensil licked by dogs ruling was also issued at the same time to make sure that the rabies virus does not spread.

psyah

Peace bro Mirch

Instead of getting into a debate regarding the semantics of training hunting animals and who or who do not agree to what you say. The actual point of contention that I raise is your aversion to hadith and supporting quotes that you bend to suit your understanding (in order to create a contradiction that is not there). Whether a dog licks a bowl or not in my view it has nothing to do with a hunt and even then there are things that you should acknowledge that some types of hunt render the animal haram for us to eat. However, because the Qur'an is silent on this you probably will ignore them too. However, on the other hand when hadith (and hadith in the broader sense is what Muhammad (SAW) has said) is silent on an issue you choose to take it as implicit acceptance.

Ulema and spreading rabies ... you know with all the anti-hadith vibes you send I find it hard to understand that you can plainly and openly claim that ulema say such and such expecting me to take your word for it without you presenting any evidence thereof.

Again I say we should not always be looking for rational explanations, because it could be that certain rationale escapes us and later we can understand it.

hareem01

The word " Jawarih" in ayah :

This refers to trained dogs and falcons, as is the opinion of the majority of the Companions, their followers, and the Imams. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said that, And those Jawarih (beasts and birds of prey) which you have trained as hounds...) refers to trained hunting dogs, falcons and all types of birds and beasts that are trained to hunt, including dogs, wild cats, falcons, and so forth. Ibn Abi Hatim collected this and said, "Similar was reported from Khaythamah, Tawus, Mujahid, Makhul and Yahya bin Abi Kathir.'' Ibn Jarir recorded that Ibn `Umar said, "You are permitted the animal that the trained birds, such as falcons, hunt for you if you catch it (before it eats from it). Otherwise, do not eat from it.'' I say, the majority of scholars say that hunting with trained birds is just like hunting with trained dogs, because bird's of prey catch the game with their claws, just like dogs. Therefore, there is no difference between the two.

From Tafsir ibn Kathir


According to maliki fiqh, dog's sliva is not impure.

psyah

The manner in which we have been taught by Allah (SWT), to kill by hunting animals ... the rules cannot be found in the Qur'an and this part of the verse does not refer to some inspirational manner that is alleged earlier. There are actually quite a few hunting methods that animals can be trained to perform, so without those rules that have been given to us by Muhammad (SAW) we cannot learn about the "manner taught to us by Allah(SWT)".

Please read the following:

maidah4

Mirch

Peace to you too.

Please stop being personal and judgmental , Allah is the best judge. Stick to subject and do not get into my intentions and my stance about Hadees, Quran and Sunnah. You cannot know what is in my heart and mind , only Allah knows. I do believe in Hadees , but not all of them and I have all the rights to be critical about Hadees which I think go against Quran, Sunnah, Other Ahadees and common logic.

For reference to rabies and dogs in Islam read this article.
Animal Rights in Islam

hareem01

"I guess the washing of utensil licked by dogs ruling was also issued at the same time to make sure that the rabies virus does not spread.


So according to you now it is okay for people to eat in a dog's plate without even washing it?

It is true that Prophet Muhammad(SAW) ordered killing of dogs in Madina then:

Book 10, Number 3813:

Abu Zubair heard Jabir b. 'Abdullah (Allah be pleased with him) saying: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) ordered us to kill dogs, and we carried out this order so much so that we also kill the dog coming with a woman from the desert. Then Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) forbade their killing. He (the Holy Prophet further) said:It is your duty the jet-black (dog) having two spots (on the eyes), for it is a devil.


Ibn Mughaffal reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) ordered the killing of dogs and then said: what is the trouble with them (the people of Medina) ? How dogs are nuisance to them (the citizens of Medina) ? He then permitted keehing of dogs for hunting and (the protection of) herds. In the hadith transmitted on the authority of Yahya, he (the Holy Prophet) permitted the keeping of dogs for (the protection of) herds, for hunting and (the protection of) cultivated land.

Spock

Keeping a dog doesnt mean you have to eat out of the same utensils, dogs are smart creatures, and they adjust really well and no their boundaries if you teach them. Honestly, I think we shouldnt keep one inside the living area of the house, though it keeps itself cleaner than goats and cows and other such animals, but in the end they are all animals and there are various health risks associated with them. So all these pets in my opinion belong outside the house, or outside of your living area, and same goes with cats, and their hair! The risk is mundane and low, but its still there.

hareem01

yes i agree....according to the hadith if dogs lick the untensli of our use, we can wash it seven times and use it, according to some scholars the sliva of the dog is not impure.

cricketplaya

thanks bro!

TLK

You are welcome bhai

Seminole

Due to the advancement in antibacterial soaps and the availablity of germ-kililng hot water, I wonder if Islam will update and reduce the number of times a utensil must be washed. Surely my Energy Star Fully Integrated Oversize Capacity Kenmore sterilizes my dishes on just one wash. Or I want my money back!

BTW, is that 7 times washed, rinsed and dried or just washed?
And if you scrub really hard (like twice as hard with twice as much sand and water as most people) can you just wash the infected utensil 3.5 times?

TLK

Your diswahser rinses it at least 3 times .. and that should be enough ..

I heard that samething about napaak clothes and washing machine .. as there are at least 3 wet cycles .. and that is good enough for the Paaki

ShiningStar

Exactly agar wo Allah pay pooray imaan o aitaqaad say bharosa kar kay chor dain to Allah zaroor hifazat karay ga.

Azmaish shirt hai. Magar Allah pay aitaqad poora hona chahyay.

Kutta hi koon bhai hifazat kay liaay. Kai kutton nain buchchon ko kaat kar halak kar dala hai aur kafi zakhmi bhi to aap ko unper ziada aitaqad hai banisbat Allah kay "hayrat hai".


Man ya baap bhi to koi aik maujood ho saktay hain. Meray khiaal hai maan baab ziada achchay muhafiz ho saktay hain apnay buchchon kay liaay wo kat kar na mar dalain gay aur na hi zakhmi karain gay.

Akhir bohat say maan baap kartay hain na kutton kay baghair hifazat.

ShiningStar

Who is mufti Ibrahim desai.

Bohat say musfti to quran main haram qarar diaay ki ijazat day detay hain.

Quran ya hadith main kaheen naheen kaha gia hai kay aap kisi mufti ko follow karain.

hareem01

Ask this to Imam of your mosque, i'm not a mufti.

Seminole

I don't think one has to be an interpreter or expounder of Islamic law to know that one automatic dishwashing cycle cleans and sterilizes my utensils. I'd go to Sears and ask the sales rep first.

Islam is the perfect religion. Washing something 7 times (including once with sand) is not the perfect solution. Having to ask an imam (who may disagree with the mufti of another mosque) how to clean my fork after my dog licks it is not perfect either.

Come to think of it, not allowing dogs to enter my house isn't the perfect scenario either. Killing dogs (no matter their color or markings) because we think they are the devil is illogical.

I just hate it when all these imperfections undermine the perfection of the perfect religion.

zobia

TLK

Mufti is just a scholar who spend 20-25 years of his life learnig Quran, hadith and Fiqh

its either I learn everything by myself or talk to someone who has done it already

Like I dont take a medical advice from everyone but a qualified doctor. same thing here.

Ask99

TLK are you planning to adopt one...that would be so much better then buying one of those puppy mills dogs...I wish I knew before

TLK

Wife is too much against it. She says that taking proper care of dog is very important and we may not be able to do that.

I cant argue with her on that

psyah

Peace Seminole

Dishwasher - requires, electricity, money to buy it, technology to design it, water a lot of which is used, heating energy, and so on ... the seven times water should be viewed as seven times the capacity of water the utensil can hold and sand as an abrasive to cling to the slobber. In the deserts they save water not waste it like we do. Imperfect? Only in your eyes.

How will you wash your fork if you camping? Imperfect? Only in your eyes.

Restaurants and shops do not allow dogs either ... imperfect? only in your eyes.

Killings dogs as devils? An interpretation that you cannot stand ground with ... imperfect? only in your eyes.

Ask99

okay ...one thing is after kids..taking care of a dog is sooo easy. The temperament of the dog is one thing that makes it easy to train or harder. With the weather of your city it may be necessary for it to be an inside dog in winters..so I guess it can be challenging.
I havent read the entire thread but dogs are a good at protecting if trained right.