I thought 'aap pehle se bahot pareshaan hain', yet you come on entering this thread, which in your eyes is 'nonsense' and 'bogus'. If you really were that pareshan you should be spending your energy trying to deal with your pareshani instead of reading 'nonsense' and 'bogus' threads... and even demanding answers to some questions posed in that thread.
Please make up your mind, before forwarding any such request
If you consider my beliefs nonesense and bogus then you should not be visting this topic second time. But on the contrary, you seem eager for further elaboration from my side ? why ?
You have been constantly ridiculing and insulting my beliefs all along. Neither your religion , nor the rules of this forum allow insulting or mocking other people's beliefs.
Please tender an unconditional and sincere apology for your crude behaviour.
Only after that i will be able to entertain any of your requests.
I do consider your belief (which is more like an assumption based on your own ideas) bogus and idiotic and I also believe that it's a ripoff of some comical series, and if you think I'm wrong then try to prove me wrong by giving the facts not your made up stories.
If you can answer AQ's post with facts then I'll present my questions those are similar to AQ's questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeSCio
I thought 'aap pehle se bahot pareshaan hain', yet you come on entering this thread, which in your eyes is 'nonsense' and 'bogus'. If you really were that pareshan you should be spending your energy trying to deal with your pareshani instead of reading 'nonsense' and 'bogus' threads... and even demanding answers to some questions posed in that thread.
This is off topic.
" Much of what I learned in school, I have had to spend my life unlearning." -Hamza Yusuf Hanson
I do consider your belief (which is more like an assumption based on your own ideas) bogus and idiotic and I also believe that it's a ripoff of some comical series, and if you think I'm wrong then try to prove me wrong by giving the facts not your made up stories.
If you can answer AQ's post with facts then I'll present my questions those are similar to AQ's questions.
This is off topic.
Dear Hareem01
You are not making this new task for me very easy. I agree with you ... how much tolerance should be spared for those people who you feel are compromising your religion? These things were probably once considered blasphemous.
I am drawn to your sincerity but I am hesitant to do anything. Code_Red is differentiating his beliefs from yours, he is not forcing you to accept nor is he at this stage arguing that his position is better and aught to be adopted by all Muslims. Rather he is providing his view ... he has provided it for it to be interesting and may be he wants us to dismantle it, so we can achieve a better understanding of Islam. So we need to bear with him.
Let's refute with supporting material ... you may feel that it is too absurd to even consider that.
The Prophet(SAW) said:
"I am leaving you two things and you will never go astray as long as you cling to them -- they are the Book of Allah and my Sunnah." [Reported by Al- Haakim - Sahih].
Hopefully your amusement shall be short lived. This is a rogue thread destined for exile. Muslims may seem to you to be entertaining such idosyncratic assertions but trust me the vast majority are 'playing' the 'open-minded' stance, so they can not be branded or labelled - in the contrary.
Myself included ... even though I am not in actual fact as 'open-minded' as I appear to be. I trust yo understand that when Islamic doctrine has been established and conformity obtained ... the last thing to do is to be 'open-minded' or to put it another way 'open to change' ... in remedial matters ... yes ... but this by no means suggests that Muslims are weak in faith. Rather we are grounded enough not to raise too much of a fuss regarding such things.
It seems the Qur'an is correct yet again with respect to the ayat that armughal has posted earlier.
Psyah,
For a second, do you really think Codey believes in all these theories. I am trying to see what he wants to say between the lines. Grounded or not change is inevitable. It might be subtle or it maybe sudden. But it will happen, history has taught us that. Nothing remains same forever, Nothing.
To repeat what others have said, requires education, to challenge it, requires brains. - Mary Pettibone Poole
^ Just because you dont want to understand some concept , or it is beyond your comprehension at a given point in time then it does not automatically make them void
I have given enough arguments , and citation from scripture.And i will provide more in future inshallah I put them for critical examination, but i am disappointed that no one bother;s to examine them
Quote:
Originally Posted by hareem01
I do consider your belief (which is more like an assumption based on your own ideas) bogus and idiotic and I also believe that it's a ripoff of some comical series, and if you think I'm wrong then try to prove me wrong by giving the facts not your made up stories.
If you bother to open your eyes and read my posts then you will see that i am answering quetions which are raised by member regarding my belief.
You, on the other hand are continuously causing distraction by throwing deregatory remarks and insults. Which is totally un-acceptable behaviour
I can only have civilized arguments with gentlemen. I can not convice tantrum vaging angry woman.
Your posts should be removed according to rules of this forum as they are causing offense Rules for the Religion Forum
Quote:
If you can answer AQ's post with facts then I'll present my questions those are similar to AQ's questions.
I will answer AQ post shortly as he raised very valid points.
It takes few seconds and hardly any intelligent quotient to post copy-paste reply or post full of mockery. But one needs time to compile a to-the-point reply.
Ik fursat-e-gunah mili wo bhi chaar din
dekhey hian hum ney hosley, parwardigar ke !
^ Just because you dont want to understand some concept , or it is beyond your comprehension at a given point in time then it does not automatically make them void
I have given enough arguments , and citation from scripture.And i will provide more in future inshallah I put them for critical examination, but i am disappointed that no one bother;s to examine them
If you bother to open your eyes and read my posts then you will see that i am answering quetions which are raised by member regarding my belief.
You, on the other hand are continuously causing distraction by throwing deregatory remarks and insults. Which is totally un-acceptable behaviour
I can only have civilized arguments with gentlemen. I can not convice tantrum vaging angry woman.
Your posts should be removed according to rules of this forum as they are causing offense Rules for the Religion Forum
I will answer AQ post shortly as he raised very valid points.
It takes few seconds and hardly any intelligent quotient to post copy-paste reply or post full of mockery. But one needs time to compile a to-the-point reply.
Peace Code_Red
If you feel anyones post should be removed then you can voice that conern in feedback. I will not remove Hareem01's posts, but if the other moderators feel it necessary then I will respect their wishes. Personally I believe when you were moderator you have tolerated a lot worse coming from others. I urge that there are some parts of the posts that are relevant and others are not.
I am absorbing what you have written but I want more clarification so before I enter with a rebuttal/agreement I need more elaboration else I might make an accusation that you could work around.
I shall use references and ask you how you would interpret them in the light of what you have provided. So my post shall follow in response to your immediate concerns about why others have not examined your ideas yet.
^ Just because you dont want to understand some concept , or it is beyond your comprehension at a given point in time then it does not automatically make them void .
Believe me I am open minded towards new concepts and ideas. But for the time being I am not convinced yet that you really mean what you are saying. Till then.
hmmm code red sir is ur post about Esa (as) not a lil like lets say if i were to meet u today n obviously i wouldnt know about ur past n suppose ur very well known for things u may have done in the past, does this then mean u were also beamed back to ur native planet n getting some vital knowledge about things n then beamed back to earth to conduct ur good deeds wich u learned while over there?
apart from this point of view do carry on, i am very much amused by this thread
The fact that Allah categorically elaborates how He raises Apostles and Prophets from the people themselves, in itself is an evidence against your theory.
According to your theory, Either:
- Suleman (AS) was not a prophet although Quran calls him a prophet.
OR;
- The Sunnah of Allah mentioned in Quran about the Prophets is wrong (Naa'oozu billah)
Take your pick and see what you are doing in either cases...
First of all sorry for delayed response
You have yourself answered your question breifly.
Quote:
again no one is denying that.... In fact, there is a hadith in Bukhari narrated to Ibn-e-Abbas to whom Prophet mentioned about another world other than this with the creatures similar to humans...
However, you have not provided reference to either of the citation. Please provide reference of quranic ayat and hadees, as i spent quite some time trying to verify them. thanks
Here let me give you the reference to strengthen your pov
Quote:
At-Talaq (Divorce) (65)
Allah is He Who created seven heavens, and of the earth the like of them; the decree continues to descend among them, that you may know that Allah has power over all things and that Allah indeed encompasses all things in (His) knowledge. {12}
This verse of holy quran is very important, as it tells what the hadees is telling that there are simmilar worlds out there where Allah sends quidance in similar ways, i.e through prophets , angels , noble men etc.
It is very much possible to for a civilization to excel in wisdom and knowledge when they are living in a different envirnment, even physical limitation are same.
For example there are two identical twin , one is adopted by an educated family and they encourage him to study and gett best education , he becomes a top class engineer and starts building fantastic engineering marvel. The other child remains with poor parents and go to hardware shop with his father.
Although , both had almost same physical and mental capacities but one attained higher level of wisdom and knowledge and the art to apply them when and where required, but other remained a commoner. For an onlooker these two individual belonged to different world, alegorically
Quote:
Are we challenging that?
The WHOLE point is about the Satanic theory proposed out of proportion and out of the context of Quran. Sure Allah has made and can make creature smarter than us (though He calls humans be the best of his creations -REF: Surah Teeen) ... The objection is on declaring Prophet Suleman(AS) be a prophet not from this world. It's like nations of most prophets asking and wondering why an angel was not sent to them as a Rasool and why a human being like them...
You are raising the objection as if Hazrat Suleman was the first prophet who was sent to this world and he actually did not belong here
Let me remind you that According to your belief and belief of 3 billion people living on planet earth, Prophet Adam, the first prophet of Allah was not a native of this world !
Allah created Adam and he lived in heaven for unknown time and then he was sent to earth.
Do we agree that heaven <> earth ( heaven and earth are two different entities according to scriptures and your belief)
So this means earth was an adopted home for prophet adam as he was sent here by Allah from somewhere else.
^ The same thing i am saying about prophet Suleman
Quote:
If you did not, then, Lo and Behold, you are declaring Dawood (AS) from outside of this world too...
Oh boy, it's getting interesting.... !
Certainly, I have no doubt that prophet dawood had God's gifts, there is very real chance that what you are saying is true too !
Quote:
Saba (Saba, Sheba) (34) - Roukh 2 And certainly We gave to Dawood excellence from Us: O mountains! sing praises with him, and the birds; and We made the iron pliant to him, {10} Saying: Make ample (coats of mail), and assign a time to the making of coats of mail and do good; surely I am Seeing what you do. {11} And (We made) the wind (subservient) to Sulaiman, which made a month's journey in the morning and a month's journey m the evening, and We made a fountain of molten copper to flow out for him, and of the jinn there were those who worked before him by the command of his Lord; and whoever turned aside from Our command from among them, We made him taste of the punishment of burning. {12}
Surely they both were magnificent people
Last edited by Code_Red; Sep 19th, 2008 at 06:58 AM.
Believe me I am open minded towards new concepts and ideas. But for the time being I am not convinced yet that you really mean what you are saying. Till then.
Its okey. I understand. I have my limitations too, may be i am not able to explain it as you would have liked
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetu
hmmm code red sir is ur post about Esa (as) not a lil like lets say if i were to meet u today n obviously i wouldnt know about ur past n suppose ur very well known for things u may have done in the past, does this then mean u were also beamed back to ur native planet n getting some vital knowledge about things n then beamed back to earth to conduct ur good deeds wich u learned while over there?
apart from this point of view do carry on, i am very much amused by this thread
I think, i did not get the question properly. It is possible, but also there are other posibilities i.e acquired knowledge and gift of God. Intuition etc
If you feel anyones post should be removed then you can voice that conern in feedback. I will not remove Hareem01's posts, but if the other moderators feel it necessary then I will respect their wishes. Personally I believe when you were moderator you have tolerated a lot worse coming from others. I urge that there are some parts of the posts that are relevant and others are not.
I am not advocating any action, since it is personal.
For the record, I did not tolerate mockery or insult of any faith, religion, religious personalities or disposition. Because this is a forum which invites people from wide range of spectrum. And we promote debate in respectful environments
^ Just because you dont want to understand some concept , or it is beyond your comprehension at a given point in time then it does not automatically make them void
I have given enough arguments , and citation from scripture.And i will provide more in future inshallah I put them for critical examination, but i am disappointed that no one bother;s to examine them
If you bother to open your eyes and read my posts then you will see that i am answering quetions which are raised by member regarding my belief.
You, on the other hand are continuously causing distraction by throwing deregatory remarks and insults. Which is totally un-acceptable behaviour
I can only have civilized arguments with gentlemen. I can not convice tantrum vaging angry woman.
Your posts should be removed according to rules of this forum as they are causing offense
Quote:
Originally Posted by Code_Red
I am not advocating any action, since it is personal.
For the record, I did not tolerate mockery or insult of any faith, religion, religious personalities or disposition. Because this is a forum which invites people from wide range of spectrum. And we promote debate in respectful environments
I was Just making it clear what is wrong.
I didn't know that your aqeedah is different to us Muslims and I thought you were only mocking and ridiculing the ayahs of Qur'an.
But now seeing that you are very serious about this thread and your beliefs (whatever it is called).
I'm sorry about not believing that you were serious about everything you wrote.
Last edited by hareem01; Sep 19th, 2008 at 01:12 PM.
All the mumbo jumbo in such a delayed reply did not prove the proposed theory at all...
as for Adam (AS), yaar code red, zaraa khud say woh waali aayat likh dau since you are so good in finding reference, where Allah had said Angels that He was going to create "Khalifa-tul-Ard"
shaabaash!
I will be back later with detailed reply to each of your points raised... theek? ...!
As per general understanding these 'guests of Ibrahim' are considered angels, most likely 2 in number. I dispute that notion. I believe they were our friends from outer space.
I have my reasons for such belief.
1. These people are reffered as 'guests' , and then 'messengers' If you read this chapter from begining there is mention of angels. Notice the different words used in different tales.
2. Notice the words uttered by prophet Ibrahim (pbuh)"He said: Surely we are afraid of you." It appears that these two gentlemen were wearing some smart dresses or their physical features were some what different that normal human beings
3. it appears that these people offered same treatment to prophet ibrahim's wife as was rendered to Hazrat Mariyam later on.
Now the passage continues:
Notice the similar expression uttered by prophet lut (pbuh) "He said: Surely you are an unknown people."
Both prophets of Allah found these people somewhat strange, and unknown. And Allah has recorded their unfamilarity with these people in holy quran. I believe there he is trying to tell us some thing. Prophets usually are quite familliar with angels.
I was hesitating to jump in here but well. Code sahab, nothing wrong with the imagination running wild but there is plenty of wrong done went logical and proper checks are not put on it.
I just wanted to ask you to research the Quran a little more based on this post of yours. If you would, you'll find the answer, which you have substituted your fantastical assumption for. Why was Ibrahim AS afraid of them? Not because they looked like aliens, infact they did not, they were angels disguised in human form and his suspicion about them as strangers did not bother him util they refused his hospitality, not because they were dressed in alien suits. You should read Surah Hud. I'll post the relevant verses here that refute your assumption with clear scriptural evidence:
11:69 There came Our messengers to Abraham with glad tidings. They said, "Peace!" He answered, "Peace!" and hastened to entertain them with a roasted calf.
11:70 But when he saw their hands went not towards the (meal), he felt some mistrust of them, and conceived a fear of them. They said: "Fear not: We have been sent against the people of Lut."
11:71 And his wife was standing (there), and she laughed: But we gave her glad tidings of Isaac, and after him, of Jacob.
11:72 She said: "Alas for me! shall I bear a child, seeing I am an old woman, and my husband here is an old man? That would indeed be a wonderful thing!"
11:73 They said: "Dost thou wonder at Allah's decree? The grace of Allah and His blessings on you, o ye people of the house! for He is indeed worthy of all praise, full of all glory!"
11:74 When fear had passed from (the mind of) Abraham and the glad tidings had reached him, he began to plead with us for Lut's people.
11:75 For Abraham was, without doubt, forbearing (of faults), compassionate, and given to look to Allah.
If you read the Arabic for verse 69, they are refered to as Rusuluna, which is for messengers of Allah SWT. If you read, only after they refused Ibrahim AS hospitality did he AS become apprehensive. Now why on earth would he be offering food to aliens? Its spelled in very straight and simple terms when he became apprehensive.
Its important to cross check your wild imaginative theories with teh Quran and Inshallah! you will find the rebuttals on your own.
Ok guys, we don't need to question people's beliefs if they wish to question or discuss a certain topic or issue with a different perspective. We can share our opinions in a decent, respectful, and mature manner without personalizing the discussion. Thank you!
PS: I do not understand where exactly we are questioning Code_red's beliefs... On the contrary, we are rebuttling his arguments where he is actually the one who is questioning the beliefs of all of us. We are just defending our position.
I didn't know that your aqeedah is different to us Muslims and I thought you were only mocking and ridiculing the ayahs of Qur'an.
But now seeing that you are very serious about this thread and your beliefs (whatever it is called).
I'm sorry about not believing that you were serious about everything you wrote.
I certainly did not and can not think of mocking ayaat of holy quran.
Even i did ( which you wrongly assumed ) then it was your duty to work out a response and correct me there and then. I guess this topic is new and there is no 'ready made' rebutals available out there.
I am just telling you the stuff written in holy scripture and but no one notice them or examine them carefully. I am not claiming that my understanding is entirely correct, thats why i am putting forward my pov and asking for critical esamination by learned memebers here
Quote:
Originally Posted by AQ
All the mumbo jumbo in such a delayed reply did not prove the proposed theory at all...
as for Adam (AS), yaar code red, zaraa khud say woh waali aayat likh dau since you are so good in finding reference, where Allah had said Angels that He was going to create "Khalifa-tul-Ard"
shaabaash!
I will be back later with detailed reply to each of your points raised... theek? ...!
Theek but find your own reference for yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AQ
^
On the very note, Lusi and I are aliens because our and the whole humanity's father Adam (AS) was not from this world.
^ That depend on what you all believe. If you believe in scriptures then this is your adopted planet. Otherwise if you believe in darwain's evolution then you are evloved from monkey and certainly you are a native of this planet
Quote:
PS: I do not understand where exactly we are questioning Code_red's beliefs... On the contrary, we are rebuttling his arguments where he is actually the one who is questioning the beliefs of all of us. We are just defending our position.
Let me jott it down for simplicity :
1. There are other worlds just like earth , and other creatures just like human ( I think we all agree)
2. Allah sent (few) prophets to earth from other worlds ( I believe , you dont )
3. Allah sent messengers ( for specific tasks ) to earth from other worlds ( i believe , you dont )
Last edited by Code_Red; Sep 20th, 2008 at 06:04 AM.
I was hesitating to jump in here but well. Code sahab, nothing wrong with the imagination running wild but there is plenty of wrong done went logical and proper checks are not put on it.
I just wanted to ask you to research the Quran a little more based on this post of yours. If you would, you'll find the answer, which you have substituted your fantastical assumption for. Why was Ibrahim AS afraid of them? Not because they looked like aliens, infact they did not, they were angels disguised in human form and his suspicion about them as strangers did not bother him util they refused his hospitality, not because they were dressed in alien suits. You should read Surah Hud. I'll post the relevant verses here that refute your assumption with clear scriptural evidence:
11:69 There came Our messengers to Abraham with glad tidings. They said, "Peace!" He answered, "Peace!" and hastened to entertain them with a roasted calf.
11:70 But when he saw their hands went not towards the (meal), he felt some mistrust of them, and conceived a fear of them. They said: "Fear not: We have been sent against the people of Lut."
11:71 And his wife was standing (there), and she laughed: But we gave her glad tidings of Isaac, and after him, of Jacob.
11:72 She said: "Alas for me! shall I bear a child, seeing I am an old woman, and my husband here is an old man? That would indeed be a wonderful thing!"
11:73 They said: "Dost thou wonder at Allah's decree? The grace of Allah and His blessings on you, o ye people of the house! for He is indeed worthy of all praise, full of all glory!"
11:74 When fear had passed from (the mind of) Abraham and the glad tidings had reached him, he began to plead with us for Lut's people.
11:75 For Abraham was, without doubt, forbearing (of faults), compassionate, and given to look to Allah.
Thankyou for examining my post, and putting forward you analysis
I read the passage and found it in line with the passage i quoted although a bit more detailed. Actually i found the same tale atleast 2 more places in holy quran
Although, avoidence from hospitality does not prove them angels, those people from other worlds are can also decline the offer due to obvious reasons. You dont eat food from other planet
But that is not the main point. I have done a small research and noticed that in all 4 places in holy quran these people are not once reffered as "Malaika " (angels ) they are reffered as 'Rusul' ( those who were sent)
If you read both chapter ( the one you quoted and the one i quote ) there is mention of " Malaika" ( the word resserved for angels) at various places
check these verses
11-12
11-31
Check the word used for angels (Malak), and now reach at verse 69 onward 83 these people are refered as rusul Rusuluna, a
to whom Prophet
mentioned about another world other than this with the creatures similar to humans...
...!
