psyah

InshaAllah I will post this response in two parts:

Part 1:

Claim 1: As “Hazrat Suleman in holy quran (prophet/king solomon in bible ) was given extra ordinary power and control over various creature, he could talk and understand birds and animals and he had control over winds and stuff.” Hence, “I deduce that he was a superman.”

A The conclusion is sound in this claim, but the presumption made implicitly in the term “superman” is not. It is true that Solomon (AS) would have been perceived as ‘super’ human, but whether he was or not is another issue. This presumption is based on the idea of the miracles being attributed to God or to him in person. It also has a bearing on what the term signifies. Superman is a concept void of God and assumes that certain people are super through their own natural devices, thus bringing a mockery to the idea of ‘miracle’ in Islamic contexts.

Claim 2: He came from some other planet , like krypton and because he was not a native of this planet he had so many super powers and control over the creatures of this planet.

A There is no basis for this assertion. It is plausible that should such a ‘super’ being exist then there is no need for him to come from another planet. Other fictional characters could ‘prove’ this, such as Dr. Do Little who spoke with animals was from Earth, also The Flash was also from Earth and so on. There is no reason that mandates the assumption that such beings need to be by necessity from another planet. Also ‘superman’ never has control over the creatures of Earth and he was hurt by kryptonite.

Claim 3: I believe time travel and inter planetory journeys took place very frequently in the past and it is mentioned in holy quran in number of places.

A Actually these are not so great things, but what happened in Islamic traditions are much more grand. Time travel is happening all the time, albeit on very insignificant levels. Whenever any body moves it does so affecting the time-space continuum. The ‘miracles’ of the Qur’an are far more advanced than simple time travel theory. The term ‘time travel’ has been acquired through similar pop-sci-fi and utilised in modern science theory, but it has rules and those rules would apply. Even the idea of warp which is ‘faster than light’ travel has rules. Even the concept of wormhole travel has certain postulates that need to be present in order for fulfilment. There is no evidence of devices used or such rules being obeyed in order to render the result of time loss or gain. For sure what happens in sci-fi stories there is an inherent impervious power given to the entity TIME, but in the Qur’an it itself is a slave to the Will of God. There was no ‘time-travel’ with the people of the cave. Rather there was a breach in the rules of time, only God can do that! Rather what happened was time being ordered to continue as the people in the cave were maintained, sustained without their knowledge. They perceived intense ‘time’ loss, but in reality Allah (SWT) sustained them in suspended animation, total stasis until a time He chose. They had no knowledge of this! Nor is there any mention of other ‘creatures’ subservient to God who did this. The claim inherent in the story is that only Allah (SWT) can do such things. As for inter-planetary travel. This too is a babyish concept of the ‘Arsh and the domain of God. For sure that what we can see to the limits of our ability is only the lowest heaven. Space and all that is in it - the physical universe is only a drop. Remember that earth and heavens and all in between is like a ring thrown in a desert to the Kursi and the Kursi is a similar measure many times smaller than the ‘Arsh. The stories of distant travel in the Qur’an and hadith actually go beyond planetary systems and first level of heaven. Something that we cannot possibly have the capability of developing as a people, rather these are gifts for the elect few.


Claim 4: The reference of a holy man Khizar in sura kahaf and the journey with Hazrat Musa. I think this holy man ( who is refered in some other tales ) and reported to have met some important personalities in history. It seems that Hazrat Khizar is an inter-galactic frequent traveler. Time , apparently is pretty much in his control. All the powers and control are bestowed by Allah Almightly, obviously.

A This assimilation to the character of Dr Who, of Khidzr (AS) as you have postulated is again out of place. It would by necessity mandate the existence of a tardis. (Tardis – device for inter-galactic and time travel) As nothing can be ratified to the existence of such created devices then it cannot be that such a notion can be true. Rather if it possible to do such things in the first place, there is an underlying tone in the stories of Khidzr (AS) who does things himself out of trust in God rather than ‘super’ ability. Those things he does himself are what any human being can do, which is swim, kill, build walls, etc. Apart from living a very long time there is no evidence of travel, no device to travel in, no suggestion that he knows his own fate or indeed when he will die, no suggestion that he controls time, though it could be possible that Allah (SWT) has given him this gift, but then supporting this theory needs evidence of which there is none. It is perfectly okay for me to believe that God enables this ‘miraculous’ breach of natural order by His Will and there is nothing we nor Khidzr (AS) can do about it.

Claim 5: This is not Fiction. This is my belief

A A belief being so does not rule out the condition of it to be fiction or fact. Rather you are asserting that since you believe such things to be true, they are not fictitious to you but you believe them to be true. Should this be the case then will you adopt the oath in the Qur’an that necessitates that you bring your family and yourself and bring down the curses of God upon you and them should this be a lie? Do you really believe enough that you are willing to do this?

Claim 6: Hazrat Suleman had extra-ordinary powers , which no other prophet posseessed Should this be a fairy tale or there is an explanation for it. My explaination makes perfect sense.

A This has been addressed though not from this angle above. Your assertion here is that something without explanation is fairy tale and additionally you state that for an explanation to be true it needs to make sense.
I actually contest this claim strongly. I can demonstrate that there are many fairytales that have reasonable postulates and explanations that make perfect sense, but are nonetheless fiction. Also there are some observable phenomena in the universe around us that do not make scientific sense, but are nonetheless factual and true. A blatant example of the latter is gravitation. To this day we have found nothing that connects the attraction of two bodies but we can observe that there is interaction between them. Many have argued the space-time fabric needs to be viewed as a homologous entity to understand gravity. These are only explanations but no proofs have been given to date. On the other hand you have limited the options. If things do no make scientific sense then it does not make them fairy tales. Rather they could be miracles as we are expected to believe in miracles as a reality that surpasses our senses, which occurred as matter of fact. If we do not believe that then we are not Muslim.


Claim 7: Holy quran tells us many stories where 'Some men' came to various prophet and foretold him about future event / catastrophies. They are generally considered as angels in the form of humans. But most of them were not 'angel'. They were people from other planets and galaxies. Some time they came for experiments and brought good news and other time they brought destruction.


A It is true that some angels are extra-terrestrial, which means that their normal place of living is not of this world, but Islam teaches us that many angels are bound to this world with us and likewise many Jinn. Some travel to and from some place in heaven and to Earth and then back again. In the case where the shape of men were assumed by angels in order to provide a message to man again this is totally part of the belief in angles that Muslims are required to hold. However, you lace this belief with an unqualified statement that most of the visitors from other worlds were not angels. This again is not true. All visitors from other worlds were and are angels, because man is Earth bound. To believe the contrary is to attribute lies to those beings that came for the benefit of mankind. That they 1) lied about who they were, i.e. they said angels, but were really just people pretending to be angels 2) brings a mockery to the orthodoxy of Islam for holding such beliefs, for no greater purpose than some other ‘impure’ entity who is touring the world to do some ‘experiments’. All of which is not substantiated and no reference can be found to the similar except in sci-fi literature.


Claim 8: You people must be thinking that i am insane. Quran has clearly told about the creatures present in the universe just like they are on earth. The earlier you realize, the better
No. It is just the limited ability of birdie brains out there to decipher the idea that Allah Almighty has not created the galaxies and billions of stars and solar system just for stupid mankind...
As they read the opening verse of holy quran as ' Alhamdullilah e Rab'il Aalameen ' but limit its meaning in their mind to 'Alhamudlillah e RAB'il Arz'

A Because there are worlds outside our own, there is nothing to mandate the fate of inter-domain interaction. It could be that the two or more worlds can simply exist in their own niches without ever having contact with one another. Unless you claim to be God or knowing of the ghaib that such matters are decreed we must take the default position that mankind is made to worship God and our interaction is for nothing but to live out our temporary lives on Earth in order to attain Jannah and the Beatific Vision. Also you view of Allah (SWT) is quite limited that you feel He cannot create the whole universe just to prove a point to us on this little rock. Had there been no other world (of life) outside our own it would take nothing away from the Majesty of The Majestic One. Rather it would act as proof that we are truly very insignificant. It would not be an arrogant approach to life rather it would be a humbling one. However, we are obliged by Islam to believe in extra-terrestrial life, but it does not oblige us to believe that we are in any way inferior to these other creatures, because we are Ashrafal-makhluqaat in that choice has been given to us and we have the best of the created bodies. Any more than this belief is to put words in the mouth of God – auzdubillah.

Claim 9: Who are we to challenge the abilitiy of God in making creature smarter than us, far more advanced and probably more obedient to Allah Almighty than we can ever be ?

A The Wisdom of Allah (SWT) is Great, that He has given us the ability to believe in our own manufactured ideas, without need for substantiation.
Muslims don’t challenge God, but rather we understand God by how He communicates to us. We should already believe that man is like animal in physical terms and like angel in spiritual terms. In that if we surpass the baggage of our animal natures we can ascend beyond angels in our worship of God, which is totally unbiased whereas in angels they have a bias to worship Him. It is clear that their worship is more perfect than ours, but it is also clear that our task for worship is harder than theirs.
What however, we should not do is bring God in to a personal belief in that we end up making His claims void. We can call Him All-Powerful, but we cannot say we have limited his power by saying He cannot become man. Rather we should say that He DOES not become man, because He sets His own conditions. God Who is Pure will not turn Himself into that what is impure. Likewise if we are termed best of creation we are not necessarily being arrogant to assume that there is nothing more intelligent than us in the universe, because it is based on some sort of reasonable basis from another area in the scriptures. However, if we find something to be more intelligent than us we can accept it, but we cannot compromise our belief that we are in the best of moulds and that its meaning could take another form, until then I am defaulting to the position that mankind is the most intelligent of God’s creations, in the complete sense of the definition.

~Iraj~

i quit physics in graduation and did my majors in something different :P

PSquared

WOW! Good stuff!!!!!

psyah

Part 2

Claim 10: In old ages magician used to show events of past and far flung places on magic crystal ball. and people believed it was magic. Now we see the same thing on our tv sets, but we dont consider it magic, because it makes sense to us. People with limited exposure, knowledge and understanding can still see the television set as magic crystal ball.

A
Truly magic is illusion and illusion is deception, which can only work by distraction. Magic is a science of deception. In the least form it is performed to entertain people, in the worst form it is performed to control people. Miracle should not be confused for magic. Miracle is undertaken either for protection or for dawah. Every deception is based on lie and miracle is truth. Should there be any opposite to magic it will be miracle. I must have a limited understanding because it is true I do see the TV as a magic box, but I do not hold any trust in it. That is the distinction we should be talking about. Did you know Hollywood comes from the phrase Holy Wood? It is classically the material used to make the staff of wizards. So the American film industry is based on this concept of magic. Yet, some have taken their stories – their lies and superimposed them on our precious historical documentaries of historical religious persons.

Claim 11:
I have the following understanding of prophet Jesus's (pbuh) life story.
The story of his birth is mentioned in Sura Mariyam. Here is my take on this :
When Hazrat Mariyam went to distanct place,

A
Be careful not to belie our muttawatir traditions of the life of Maryam (AS). When she was visited by Angel Jibreel (AS) she was in I’tekaf. She was in seclusion and within the walls of a temple. To assert that she went to a distant place before conception is a hoax.

Claim 12:
She encountered a member of some advanced civilization, who was visiting earth at that time.

A
According to the Qur’an which you have conveniently sidelined the person was none other than Angel Jibreel (AS) who was sent on the bidding of Allah (SWT) to breathe over Maryam (AS); i.e. to carry the command of God – ‘Be’ and condense this over her thus she became pregnant with Isa (AS). There is no record of a whole civilization that she (AS) encountered and no record of them every arriving. How convenient is it that she had to travel away from society so that there were no witnesses to this event? Rather you seem after more than 2000 years to be the only person who testifies to this.

Claim 13:
He infused an embryo in her body without getting into any form of physical contact with her. Most probably he did due to direct intution from God Almighty.

A
To assume that an embryo was used in the “Immaculate Conception” you have stumbled big time. It is partly because it is clear that your understanding of matters scientific is limited. To assume that an embryo was used you have deal with the question, who was the genetic father? You have to deal with the notion whether the female component was or was not her own. Another interesting point is that you treat the embryo insertion as though it is a fact again not substantiated with material evidence and then in the following sentence you say ‘probably’ and something about direct intuition from God. Your statement carries more belief about the embryo than the intuition from God. Not only does this speak volumes about how you are handling ‘belief’ but also at the same time you are attempting to mix your theories with truth from scripture.

And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it). Qur’an 2:42 (Shakir translation)

Claim 14:
The boy started talking to people , as he was built on a different DNA model , which was far more advanced than human model.

A
DNA has nothing to do with how quickly people develop the art of speech. This is comic book stuff bro! If his DNA was different then how did his mother give birth to him? He is from her blood … her DNA. The rest is primed with male genetics not dissimilar to that of Adam (AS). Both were created. He was a human. He was not and advanced life form as you attest because that would make it very difficult for Maryam (AS) to conceive him because even today we do not have the technology to impregnate two different species in those days they did not have even basic embryology understanding. Please explain how a ‘cow’ can give birth to a ‘dolphin’? So why assert that a human is giving birth to a more advanced entity? To assert time travellers or aliens came to do the business is putting a lie on the Maryam (AS). So many breaches have been made. The purpose of her to be in seclusion was to emphasise her piety, but you have removed that from her by making her travel to a distant land. You have taken away the idea that Maryam (AS) was untouched, but rather seeded by someone else’s DNA. You have made absurd claims only to bring down the concept of miracle to a platform that your personal rationale agrees with, even if it does mean to develop a completely new belief in alien intervention. The worst thing that you have done is to belie the narration in the Qur’an. Either you are saying the author of Qur’an is mistaken or is giving us false information. A’udzubillah.

Claim 15:
The child recieved intution from God Almighty as well as the species he belonged to. The civilization which he belonged was very pious and very technically far more advanced than mankind at that time.

A
Again this notion is absurd, because it contradicts the scripture and hence the meaning of it too. Why would some other ‘race’ of intelligent being lie to us about who they were, only tell you about their true nature – thus making you a prophet, and let everyone know for 2000 years that some other story is true, making Muhammad (SAW) seem like he had no true knowledge because his (SAW) version is like the version of the Christians, and furthermore you can still call such a deceptive ‘race’ of people …. ‘very pious’? Please read that ayat 2:42 again and in addition understand another statement in the Qur’an. He (Muhammad (SAW)) does not keep to himself of the unseen. Which means he discloses the whole truth as he knew it. Those people who keep some of the truth back are evil and impious. So your claims to modify and rationalise your belief of things that go beyond your understanding actually compromise the ethics and principles of good and evil. A fallacy that you have made in this claim is that you are assuming technical advancement is related to evolutionary advancement. There is no basis for this either. Humanity is becoming technologically advanced every minute, but we have genetically remained the same since we can identify our oldest specimens, any older than that it is even suspect whether those creatures were ‘humans’ at all. It does not matter how advanced an entity is genetically as long as they are capable of making ‘choice’ freely then they are subject to the laws of good and evil and hence judgement. Which means it is essential that those prophets who came to us by obligation need to be from us. Or else we can argue with God on Judgement Day … “but those people You sent were genetically advantaged we were weak …. Let us off!” … NO! It becomes a mockery of religion to believe your version.

Claim 16:
Those missing years of life about which there is no record available, he might have visited his native land and people ... and learned to heal nasty ilnesses, whether spritual or physical. He treated mankind after returning back to earth. He gathered followers, taught them wisdom and good manner. Jews/roman tried prosecute him, unjustly

A
This is all the same unsubstantiated banter. He was endowed with wisdom and knowledge from birth by claiming he needed to learn things is actually bordering the popular view of Jesus (AS) amongst those people who believe in the bloodline of Jesus (AS) and the idea that he has already died on Earth. And even is he did learn how to heal, how would you explain that healing without devices or machines or equipment is possible? If it is linked with using the brain, then you are giving more ‘power’ to Jesus (AS) than he or anyone else deserves. All Jesus (AS) used to do was du’a and then pass on the message of faith and he said many times that ‘faith has healed you’ and he used to praise Allah (SWT). He was asked about how he managed to walk on water (this is in hadith) and the reply he gave was based on ‘belief’ alone. So either he lied about how he did it or you are mistaken about how he learned skills to heal. Choose one. Furthermore he taught his followers how to supplicate to Allah (SWT) in earnestness. And they too began to heal, so it could not have anything to do with his genetic makeup either as his human followers were doing the same.

Claim 17:
He was beamed back to his native planet and lived (or is living) rest of his life there

A
Again no mention of planet exists in scripture and your view of creation is seemingly limited in the physical domain. Barzakh, and other domains of existence are not 100% physical so the idea of someone going to another planet does not do any favours to the Majesty of God. However, belief in Him in his Power to manifest from the perceptibly impossible is what we mean by true belief in Allah (SWT)- in the ghaib. | For the next sections my answers will be more brief in bold below|

This is from Sura Hijr , Chapter 15 of holy quran
As per general understanding these 'guests of Ibrahim' are considered angels, most likely 2 in number. I dispute that notion. I believe they were our friends from outer space.
I have my reasons for such belief.

1. These people are reffered as 'guests' , and then 'messengers' If you read this chapter from begining there is mention of angels. Notice the different words used in different tales.

pointless observation

2. Notice the words uttered by prophet Ibrahim (pbuh)"He said: Surely we are afraid of you." It appears that these two gentlemen were wearing some smart dresses or their physical features were some what different that normal human beings

The fear was due to them not eating, not due to the way they were dressed, USResident and AQ have answered at length

3. it appears that these people offered same treatment to prophet ibrahim's wife as was rendered to Hazrat Mariyam later on.

Isa (AS) had no father, but you are suggesting that Ibrahim (AS) is not the genetic father of Ishaac? A’udzubillah! You will need to modify this claim.

Notice the similar expression uttered by prophet lut (pbuh)
"He said: Surely you are an unknown people."
Both prophets of Allah found these people somewhat strange, and unknown. And Allah has recorded their unfamilarity with these people in holy quran. I believe there he is trying to tell us some thing. Prophets usually are quite familliar with angels.

This just means that he (AS) has not seen them before

The people of town were homosexual and they got the news of these visiting strange ( maybe beautiful ) people. Notice the warning and then plea of Prophet lut, for saving his honourable guest from ignorant and evil people of the town who came with bad intentions.
If they were angels then prophet lut must have known that people of the town can not harm them at all. But on the contrary Prophet lut , sternly warned them to back off , and even offered his daughters to save his guests from nasty people of the town.
Later the town was destroyed by these 'guests' after sending prophet and his follower to far off place.

You are confused about this story … Angels come unto Lut (AS) as men, then he does not recognise them, they in Surah hijr Ayat 63, the ‘that which they have been doubting refers to the torment’ because the people of Sodom were in doubt of Lut (AS) warnings. At this stage he knew that they were angels. The angels order Lut (AS) to flee the area while they prepare to destroy it. News of the arrival of visitors spread in the town and they came up to the house of Lut (AS). Before they could address them they were warned by Lut (AS) not to do or say anything disgraceful or shameful because he hoped (he might have a chance with his people), but they ignored him and further told him off for trying to take the honour of hosting the guests, who he knew were actually angels disguised as men. Lut (AS) tried very hard to stop them in their evil acts especially when the angels were there, he even offered his daughters in marriage to them, so he tried to save till the last moment, but they partied and did their shameful things and the angels turned in to weapons of God and levelled that town.

You are raising the objection as if Hazrat Suleman was the first prophet who was sent to this world and he actually did not belong here
Let me remind you that According to your belief and belief of 3 billion people living on planet earth, Prophet Adam, the first prophet of Allah was not a native of this world !
Allah created Adam and he lived in heaven for unknown time and then he was sent to earth.
Do we agree that heaven <> earth ( heaven and earth are two different entities according to scriptures and your belief)
So this means earth was an adopted home for prophet adam as he was sent here by Allah from somewhere else.
^ The same thing i am saying about prophet Suleman

The rest is repeating what has been said earlier .. below is evidence in the Qur’an that prophets are men. To re-emphasise messengers can be men or angels

002.129
YUSUFALI: "Our Lord! send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom, and sanctify them: For Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise."

003.164
YUSUFALI: Allah did confer a great favour on the believers when He sent among them a messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of Allah, sanctifying them, and instructing them in Scripture and Wisdom, while, before that, they had been in manifest error.

011.061
YUSUFALI: To the Thamud People (We sent) Salih, one of their own brethren. He said: "O my people! Worship Allah: ye have no other god but Him. It is He Who hath produced you from the earth and settled you therein: then ask forgiveness of Him, and turn to Him (in repentance): for my Lord is (always) near, ready to answer."

007.065
YUSUFALI: To the 'Ad people, (We sent) Hud, one of their (own) brethren: He said: O my people! worship Allah! ye have no other god but Him will ye not fear (Allah)?"

007.066
YUSUFALI: The leaders of the Unbelievers among his people said: "Ah! we see thou art an imbecile!" and "We think thou art a liar!"

007.067
YUSUFALI: He said: "O my people! I am no imbecile, but (I am) a messenger from the Lord and Cherisher of the worlds!

002.035
YUSUFALI: We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

(The parables are for humanity how they mean anything to us if these people were not like us?)

002.036
YUSUFALI: Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."

004.001
YUSUFALI: O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.

007.189
YUSUFALI: It is He Who created you from a single person, and made his mate of like nature, in order that he might dwell with her (in love). When they are united, she bears a light burden and carries it about (unnoticed). When she grows heavy, they both pray to Allah their Lord, (saying): "If Thou givest us a goodly child, we vow we shall (ever) be grateful."

003.036
YUSUFALI: When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!"- and Allah knew best what she brought forth- "And no wise is the male Like the female. I have named her Mary, and I commend her and her offspring to Thy protection from the Evil One, the Rejected."

002.127
YUSUFALI: And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.

002.128
YUSUFALI: "Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

(some people are from the family of these prophets (AS), are you saying some of us have alien DNA?)

AQ

Awesome Analysis Psyah... Good Job...

Code_Red

Thankyou psyah for investing considerable time into this and compiling answers for most of the points raised in this thread

I will be analysing them and compiling my detailed observations soon.

NeSCio

good analysis psyah,

Although I agree with most things you mention, few words of caution are warranted regarding the discussion on embryology, DNA and genetics.

According to current understanding of those topics, a few notions Code_Red proposes are improbable or even impossible. But similarly, a few counter-arguments you propose are equally unsound/unscientific -according to current understandings.

Anyway, let this not distract from what is turning into an interesting debate...

m249boost

I’m sorry, WHAT?! Errr… Perhaps in the sense that we ALL experience time travel. You know, going into the future at the rate of 60 seconds a minute…

Code_Red

Since it was very detailed analysis. I am going to break down my response in 3 portions

1. Rationale, reasoning and logic in believing such superior beings as extra terrestrials

2. Scientific Proof and supporting evidence for proposed theories

3. reference from scriptures, rebutal, qustions and answers

Due to length, it might take few post and couple of days before I finish my resposne. Since any party of this debate does not have the luxury of relying on ready made material.
finding reference, cross checking reference, compiling takes time and lots of energy. Delay is all but natural

This is first portion :

Miracle , hand of God and transfusion of devine attribution to creatures through systematic means :

I sense the feeling that people gather from the theory and belief that I, somehow do not believe in miracles and trying to rationalize them through blowing stories out of propotion.
Here i will try to clarify and explian my understanding of the subject.

Miracles, as told in holy scriptures can be categorised into two broad categories :

i ) Miracles happened (to and) through prophets by God Almighty and they served a purpose. I call it hand of God, allegorically. Splitting of sea (by God) through Moses to provide safe passage for his followers.

ii) Miracles that were performed prophets/holy men ; which was a gift of God to them either directly by devine knowledge or by transfusion through systemetic means like practce , experiments ,discoveries , transfer of knowledge.

Doctors perform miracle everyday.

This statement might not excite you very much as it might be considered a slogan of some Organisation run by medical practitioners. But if you look through theological binoculars then we know that All illness and all the cures are directly from God Almighty. And without his will, no one can cure any illness.

What doctors do is the precisely the application of 2nd type of miracles. They partake the lengthy and difficult journey of acquiring knowledge perfected by centuries of research and result of important experiments and finding. Which was gathered by the efforts of so many men.

Heat eyes, kidney transplant and so many cures of illnesses were unthinkable just a few centuries ago. What a doctor does today in his daily routine, if did it it infront of people of mideaval then they would not consider it anything short of a miracle.

The cases I bring forth , the stories told in holy scribtures of prophet suleman and Khizar is also of similar nature. He had the gift of God in the form of knowlegde and resultant extra-ordinary powers over creatures and stuff. However miracles attributed to some other prophets fall in the 1st category. In other words, Moses was not besowed with the knowledge of splitting sea neither Prophet Ibrahim knew how cool down the fire.... Similarly Noah was told to build a boat to sail through the once in a life time experience.

The reason for believing them to be non-native of this world is their stark contrast in acquired knowledge from the ordinary populace of this planet and them being well ahead of their time. For instance, flying around with entourage is understandable, listening and talking to animals is also understandable. As of now we know tha humans can only hear to voice with range of 20 to 20,000 db ( approx) most of the animal sounds are out of this range. This and other marvelous feats are well ahead of there time in this world at that time... but probably not for inhabitants of some other world

The Arguments, reference from scriptures, supporting such ( non-human / man being prophet) belief I shall submit in third portion of this response, inshallah.

Continued ...

Code_Red

Before continuing with the second portion I feel delight in quoting the beautiful and enlightening explaination of Magic by esteemed member psyah

The second portion :

This portion will mostly address the arguments / answers w.r.t to claims 11-17

'Member of some advance civilization' simply means someone with more knowledge, power, and means to deliver, gifted by God Almightly.

quote--
To assume that an embryo was used in the “Immaculate Conception” you have stumbled big time. It is partly because it is clear that your understanding of matters scientific is limited --unquote

I might agree with the later part of statement but would advocate reading an explaination of a phenomena named " surrogacy " for better understanding of the subject matter

" Surrogacy is a method of reproduction whereby a woman agrees to become pregnant and deliver a child for a contracted party. She may be the child's genetic mother (the more traditional form of surrogacy), or she may, as a gestational carrier, carry the pregnancy to delivery after having been implanted with an embryo. Surrogacy is a controversial, and in some jurisdictions, illegal, medical procedure." source


As per scripture, we are provided with no definite answer as who are the genetic parents of the child concieved. It is a matter of belief.

quote --
DNA has nothing to do with how quickly people develop the art of speech. This is comic book stuff bro! If his DNA was different then how did his mother give birth to him? He is from her blood … her DNA. The rest is primed with male genetics not dissimilar to that of Adam (AS). Both were created. He was a human.
--unquote

As on contrary, DNA has everything to do with every minute characteristics of a creature.
Giving birth to baby with Different DNA ? the above reference explains it in detail
Genetically modified animals and plants are very common these days. Most of the suff we eat has gone through some or more genetic modification, nowadays. Mainly for increased efficiency , production, quality etc.

quote--

And even is he did learn how to heal, how would you explain that healing without devices or machines or equipment is possible? If it is linked with using the brain, then you are giving more ‘power’ to Jesus (AS) than he or anyone else deserves.

--unquote

of course it is possible ! there are dozens of Alternate medical systems which profess healing of physical illness without any apperent physical means and devices means. i.e by combining various forces of body at single point. One of such medical system is " Reiki " please do a search and you will find lot of interesting detail as how thousands of people are benefiting from it.

quote --

All Jesus (AS) used to do was du’a and then pass on the message of faith and he said many times that ‘faith has healed you’ and he used to praise Allah (SWT). He was asked about how he managed to walk on water (this is in hadith) and the reply he gave was based on ‘belief’ alone. So either he lied about how he did it or you are mistaken about how he learned skills to heal
-- unquote

Indeed ! faith and prayer are the two most powerful devices known to us. Faith can be very powerful and suplications are also very helpful. Faith can do wonders and prophet (pbuh) is absolutely right here. here is a popular verse of Allama Iqbal about power of faith :

be khatar kood para Aatish-e-namrood main ishq
Aqal hai mehav e tamasha e lab e baam abhi !

more explianation of this can be sought from my understanding of miracles in portion 1

reference / proof from scriptures in next portion

To be continued ...

bob_chasm

I think Code Red has an imaginative and creative mind. There seems to be a lot of different and interesting ideas floating around in his mind. It is nice of him to share them with us. In Pakistan children are told stories about bhoot pareet, churails, adam knor jinns etc too. Growing up children often combine these ideas with stories from the Quran in their minds. Later in life they are separated. Sometimes they dont and we call them superstitious. However, the point is this is normal in human development. In the west children have sc fi and other fantasy books. I think what code is doing is normal and perfectly healthy. he seems to be using his ideas of sci fi and fiction to build knowledge in religion. Instead of getting frustrated and angry with him, discuss what you think is written in the Quran and how you think it agrees or disagrees with what he is saying. Eventually, his mind will separate sci fi from religion. However, for now this is an interesting way for him to learn. The human mind is complex.

Code_Red

Third Portion ...

Sorry for the delay due to vacations. Hopefully my response will end with this post

Prophet Lut and his encounter with Extra-terrestrials

Since i have put forward my theory and supporting evidence from quran, which i gathered/ examined after investing some time but respected members have dismissed them as mere fantasy and "Pointless observations"

My question was
to which psyah explained :
quote--
You are confused about this story … Angels come unto Lut (AS) as men, then he does not recognise them, they in Surah hijr Ayat 63, the ‘that which they have been doubting refers to the torment’ because the people of Sodom were in doubt of Lut (AS) warnings. At this stage he knew that they were angels. The angels order Lut (AS) to flee the area while they prepare to destroy it. News of the arrival of visitors spread in the town and they came up to the house of Lut (AS). Before they could address them they were warned by Lut (AS) not to do or say anything disgraceful or shameful because he hoped (he might have a chance with his people), but they ignored him and further told him off for trying to take the honour of hosting the guests, who he knew were actually angels disguised as men. Lut (AS) tried very hard to stop them in their evil acts especially when the angels were there, he even offered his daughters in marriage to them, so he tried to save till the last moment, but they partied and did their shameful things and the angels turned in to weapons of God and levelled that town.
--unquote
I believe the above explaination is a result of faulty understanding and incomplete research. I have told earlier that this tale is mentioned/reffered in atleast 4 places in the holy quran. and if we go through them, then we will come across the verses where it is clearly written that the people of sodom came for these specific people (guests of Lut)
Chapter 54 (Al Qamar) verses 32-40
So If prophet Lut knew they are angels (as bro psyah believes ) then why he desparetely tried to save them ????

My Answer : Prophet Lut Knew only that these people are sent by God as they themselves asserted that they are messengers (not angels) sent by God to destroy the nation (Holy quran 11-81) . He did not consider them angels thats why he was trying to save them from rowdy crowd. Allah never used the word reserved for angel for these people.

This is my understanding based on evidence from holy quran. Rest, Allah knows the best


Man is not a native of this planet !

I have already quoted many quranic verses which clearly tell us that by the virtue of its creation and master game plan, Man is not a native of this planet. Man (adam) was sent to this world to live here for a short (stipulated ) time and observe God's commands. All Men are decsendant of one man and he came to earth from some other place. according to scriptures

Man is not a native can be proved scientifically as all the native animals can sense natural calamities beforehand due to their frequency match with mother nature. Man does not have this ability, wonder why ?

http://www.lankalibrary.com/news/animals.htm

Code_Red

Cont.

Did Allah make mistake ?

Obviously not ! But when we read few tales in holy quran we come across something strange. Most of you must be aware of the the story of creation of Adam and dialogues between Allah, satan and angels etc.

Now if you want to refresh the story in your mind then please consult holy quran, as the story is told in varying detail in many chapters of holy book. I am going to quote only the part which relates to the context of my point.


Note that Allah ordered angels to bow down to Adam. They complied but Iblis (satan) refused

Similar wording here

Now examine these following verses :

Now if Iblis was a jin then what he was doing among Angels ?????

And If he was among angel then why Allah is specifically telling us that he was a jin ?

Is Angel and Jin one and the same thing (creature) ?


According to my understanding, both creatures are of very different nature with very different attributes. Jin'naat are one creature and Malaika are another creature. One has free will but the other does not have a free will. Thats why they are reffered in quran separetely at different places.

Now anyone wants to answer my questions then he/she is most welcome

The most common explaination some of you might offer is that Iblis was Basically a jin but he attained status of Angel due to his dedicated worship for very long time.

If I buy this explaination then I deduce a principle that

A creature can assimmilate into another creature while containing its (some or most) attributes. of course by the will of ( and knowledge bestowed by) God


Remember Iblis refused. Which means he had free will. Angels dont have free will

This principle can be applied to other creatures. I.e some Extra Terrestrial creature can become man and still have knowledge and qualities attained earlier, and vice versa

Note :

I am only putting forward my understanding supported with authentic source from holy scriptures. However, I do not consider my understanding error free.
Although i took considerable pain and invested time, cross checking refferece for my own satisfaction. If anyone wants to point out error and put forward counter arguments, I will be glad to engage in further debate

Code_Red

Thankyou for your comment on the object , rather than Subject But important aspect to note that people who are commenting on object are shying away from subject becasue of the un-orthrodox views and understanding exposed therein.

Please note that its is not wild imagination. These bieleifs are directly derived from holy scriptures. Thats why they are supported with array of refferences and quotation directly from the source

Please explain to me how the stories told in quran are any different than fairy tales we hear in our childhood ?

Can we not make a movie like Lord of the Ring, based solely on the stories told in holy quran ?

I say , Yes we can !

Because these stories are fantastic and charming like fairy tales ; in the 'literal sense' of these two words.


What do you say ?

Please do substantiate you response

bob_chasm