Gulnaar Khan

Great!

So you believe angels have the power to act as mediators between us and the Prophet and his progeny cannot be accepted as the most revered one capable of acting as a medium between us, the prophet (saw) and Allah??

Nosherwan

Why do you base your beliefs on emotion rather than evidence from Quran and Sunnah?

Instead of having a objective discussion you ignore all the evidence contradicting your beliefs and will use a combination of emotion, out-of-context and misintrepreted verses and weak ahadith to justify your beliefs.

That's the propblem with a lot of our people, they are more concerned about defending their own beleifs no matter what rather than objectively finding the truth.

I had this argument with my cousin yesterday, he beleives something just because "our Imam sahib" says so. What sort of logic is that?

The Prophet is definately far higher in status than the angels, nobody is denying that.

We are not worth the dust upon the shoes of the Prophet and the Lion-of-God but we have to obey the messages they upheld including the order to worship God directly.

I'm not saying the angels are Haazir-o-Naazir, they are just loads of them everywhere romaing the earth as Allah has ordered them to do so they can deliver our Salaam to the Prophet .

My belief of delivery angels delivering the Salaams to the Prophet is based on a Hadith (if you are Shiah you wont believe it because you have seperate Ahadith from us and this is from Sunni books, unless you have similar one in your books):

"Indeed Allah's Angels roam around the earth conveying to me the greetings of salaams from my Ummah."

If Nabi Ji was Haazir-o-Naazir there would be no need for delivery angels.

I find your logic very illogical, just because I might send a letter to my mother via a postman does not mean I love and respect the postman more than my mother.

Maverick_27

bhai mubashir

hasan hadiths are generally those hadith that has some weakness in chain of narration or the one or maore narrators are not siqqa (authentic). or the hadith is gharib (it means that there is only one narrator of the hadith at the origion).

so if a hadith is hasan it is not a quality rather it is a caveat for the reader.
(wallah alim)

in each rakaat of namaz in surah fatiha we say

"hum teri (allah) hi ibidaat kartay hain aur tujhi say madad mangtay hain"


so y not take obvious and authentic thing (Quran) instead of following hasan hadith.

Nosherwan

Nobody is denying there is Shafaa'at (intercession) in Islam but Shafaa'at does not mean taking a intermediary to Allah.

Shafaa'at is when on the day of Judgement our Holy Prophet (who will hold the highest authority on intercession: the Maqaam-e-Mehmood) will intercede for his Ummah to Allah with Allah's permission.

The other Prophets (PBUT) and the Saints and Martyrs etc. (may Allah have mercy on them and bless them) will also be given permission to intercede.

This is Shafaa'at.

Shafaa'at is not saying "Oh Jesus Christ save me", or "Hail Mary, Our Lady help me" or "Messenger of Allaah help me" or "Ya Ali Madad!"... That all is shirk (polytheism) which neither Muhammad , nor Jesus nor Ali would approve of.

Pagluu

-Firstly, I did not mention the context of the verse to start of it. The point was to underline the principle of intercession in the light of Quran. Indeed the subject of the verse were the hypocrites, but that is beside the point. Read the verse again:

[4:64]..........and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

Now, do you think that Allah (swt) will recommend an act, which according to you is polytheistic in nature, nauzobillah?

-Please explain clearly what is it exactly that you think is wrong; Is it asking the Prophet (saww) to pray to Allah (swt) on ones behalf OR Is it that the Prophet (saww) is with us no more and therefore we can not address him to intercede to Allah (swt)?

Pagluu

My friend, the meaning of the word Tawwasul are "means". Its good to know that you acknowledge the fact that Prophet (saww) and the shohda etc will be able intercede on our behalf to Allah (swt). Now the onus is on you to prove that such authority is only restricted to the hereafter because to me it is not. Here is two more verses for you:

[10:3] Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firm in power, regulating the affair, there is no intercessor except aher His permission; this is Allah, your Lord, therefore serve Him; will you not then mind?

[2:255] Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission?

Pagluu

Allah (swt) is Haazir o Naazir and He is free of need too, right? Does he not use the means of angels and his representatives to conduct His work?

Your postman argument- it works more against you than in your favor!!!

Nosherwan

Bro the verses you posted do nothing to prove your version of intercession.

I believe in Quran and Sunni Sunnah/Ahadith according to the understanding of the Sahaabah, Tabi'in and Tabi' al-Tabi'in.

In my opnion there is nothing in the Quran and Sunnah to justify your version of intercession, and yes I have been on the sites where they cleverly misintrepret, take out of context and use weak Ahadith and history books (which are not a source of religion) to back up their beleifs with Sunni Ahadith.

Praying to Ali for help by saying "Oh Ali help me!" in times of distress in my opnion does not have any basis in Quran or our Sunnah (Sihah Sittah)...

..Your collection of Sunnah might have Ahadith/Akhbar which justify this instead of "Ya Allah Madad" but your Ahadith/Sunnah are not a source of guidance for me.

Just out of curiosity are there any narrations from the Prophet , the Ahl Al-Bayt (Radhi Allaahu Anhum) or the Imams (Radhi Allaahu Anhum/Rehmatullah Alaihim) in your books which justify this?

Regarding the verse about the hypocrites, I believe that was referring to the hypocrites during the time of the Prophet ....

...I don't believe we can ask the Prophet to pray for us now, nor do I believe he is Haazir-o-Naazir. To me all that is very Catholic.

Nosherwan

Our Waseelah to Allah should be our Dua (Supplication), Ibaadah (worship) and righteous good deeds rather than an intermediary.

Nosherwan

Ponder over these blessed verses:

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Who provides for you from the sky and from the earth? Or who owns hearing and sight? And who brings out the living from the dead and brings out the dead from the living? And who disposes the affairs?" They will say: "Allâh." Say: "Will you not then be afraid of Allâh's Punishment (for setting up rivals in worship with Allâh)?" (Quran 10:31)

Surely, the religion (i.e. the worship and the obedience) is for Allâh only. And those who take Auliyâ' (protectors and helpers) besides Him (say): "We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allâh." Verily, Allâh will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Truly, Allâh guides not him who is a liar, and a disbeliever. (Quran 39:3)

And they worship besides Allâh things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allâh." Say: "Do you inform Allâh of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?" Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him! (Quran 10:18)

Nor would he order you to take angels and Prophets for lords (gods). Would he order you to disbelieve after you have submitted to Allâh's Will? (Tafsir At-Tabarî). (Quran 3:80)


"And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner­self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All­Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

"Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).

If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All­Mighty, the All­Wise." [Qur'aan 5:116-118].

Those whom they call upon desire (for themselves) means of access to their Lord (Allâh), as to which of them should be the nearest and they hope for His Mercy and fear His Torment. Verily, the Torment of your Lord is something to be afraid of! [Quran 17:57]

Pagluu

Nosherwan, do you understand the style of communication where a negative is followed by an exception? For example, just saying "La Illaha" will be equal to saying kufr but adding "il Allah" infront of it and only reciting it entirely, makes it perfect. The verses of Holy Quran that you have provided ONLY reject intercession without the permission of Allah (swt). You seem to be turning your back against the verses I have brought forward clearly outlining the phrases of exception, e.g., "but by His permission", "except after His permission", "except for him whom He approves" and "but he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him)" etc.

Pagluu

Nosherwan, you seem to be repeating what I have heard and seen plenty of in the country where I am from. Tauheed is not just uttering "Allah is one" and "only Allah" but rather obeying the command of Allah (swt). His command to the angels were to bow down to Adam (as), and when one of them refused, he earned condemnation till the day of judgement. Allah's command to you and I is to follow the path of those whom he bestowed His favors, His chosen representatives.

[1:7] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.

When the angels bowed to Adam (as), their prostration was for no one but Allah (swt).
When the brothers of Yousuf (as) prostrated before him, it showed respect for not only Yousuf (as) but the ONE Yousuf (as) was representing, i.e. Allah the Almighty.
When the magicians in the court of Firoun feel down infront of Musa and Haroon (as), they had submitted and had fallen infront of the power of Allah (swt) that He had showed through Musa and Haroon (as).
So if i call upon the chosen representatives of Allah (swt) for help then what makes you think I am asking for help from one other than the Almighty Allah?

kchughtai

Do you believ that the holy prophet (pbuh) and his family is hazar nazir like Allah.
What is the basis of such a belief?

Pagluu

^ It is impossible to compare the creator with the created.

[112:4] And there is none comparable unto Him.

sNOVA

did the imams ever countenance such tawasul? cite any hadith or quotation from Nahjul-balagha or sayings of any other imams. im not suggesting anything yet. just interested whether this practise was recommended by the imams. also what do you say about the supplication of Nade-Ali which goes as follows:

Call Ali! Call Ali!
Call aloud to Ali!
Who is the epiphanic source of wonders
You shall surely find him helping in your troubles
All grief and anxiety will disappear
By Your power and Authority!
O Ali! O Ali! O Ali!

Was this supplication of the imams?

Nosherwan

The verses refer to Shafaa'ah on the Day of Judgment.

As for Waseelah, I don't think using intermediaries to Allah is right.

Allah should be approached directly, we can use our prayers, worship, righteous deeds and the Holy Names of Allah as a Waseelah but using the Prophets (pbut), the Martyrs or the Saints as an intermediary is to me Christianity or Arab-Paganism under the guise of Islam, the Arab-Pagans also considered Allah the Supreme Lord and Creator and maintained their idols of pious men were merely their intercessors with Him.

“They worship besides Allah things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: “These are only our intercessors with Allah.”

(Intrepretation of the meaning of the Noble Quran 10:18)

Nosherwan

We follow the Shariah of Muhammad not pass abrogated Shariahs and the Shariah of Muhammad does not allow prostration to other than God.

By your logic worshipping Jesus Christ or Krishna or Ram is fine because Christians and Hindus believe they worship one Allah and the idol is just for concentration.

Following the path of Allah's representatives is one thing, worshipping them is another..

Nosherwan

I would like to know that too.

Everything I know from the Quran and our Sunni Sunnah suggests that supplicating to other than Allah (whether as an intermediary or as an independent helper) is wrong and forbidden and the only proper form of supplication is to call upon our Lord Allah directly.

I have never seen any solid proof from the Quraan or our Sunni Sunnah to suggest that taking intermediaries to Allah is permissible or encouraged, those that do justify it will only do so by misquoting and misintrepreting verses and narrations to prove their point.

I can't speak for Shiah Sunnah/Ahadith/Akhbar though, maybe they have narrations attributed to the Prophet , the Ahl al-Bait (radhi allahu anhum) or the Imams (may Allah be pleased with them/have mercy on them) which encourages their form of Waseelah, not that is justifies it according to our understanding of the Quran.

Hashmat Usmani

Pagluu

Du`a Kumayl

Al-Sahifa Al-Kamila Al-Sajjadiyya

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