now dont give the crap that everyone does not follow it properly. If they dont then you religion is not able to guide them then how it is best.
No religion is best or worst, all are equal..its the people, the followers make it good or bad.
If you were right for even a second then you would not have seen millions converted to Islam despite hinduism was existed in Indian subcontinent.
(Just one argument)
Don't tell me crap about forced conversion theory your grandpa told you!
Your mad-rasah is in your own very home teaching you crap about muslims like they were somehow miraculously responsible of crimes against women such as sati in hinduism.
If you were right for even a second then you would not have seen millions converted to Islam despite hinduism was existed in Indian subcontinent.
(Just one argument)
Don't tell me crap about forced conversion theory your grandpa told you!
Your mad-rasah is in your own very home teaching you crap about muslims like they were somehow miraculously responsible of crimes against women such as sati in hinduism.
read properly what i have written and then answer it. where did i talked about forced conversion or how good my religion is?
Hinduism does promote division of people based on their 'caste' and ill-treatment of lower cast human being. Islam is stricltly against such practice.
Islam divides people into belivers and non-belivers and promotes killing of unbelivers where ever they are found. Such a violent and blood thirsty religion.
People may be divided on the basis of caste. Do you have any proof that the vedas or the Gita say that the so called "lower castes" must be subjugated or that the caste is inherited?
In the Vedic period, there was no discrimination against shudras(so called lower castes). Gita says that one's varna is to be understood from one's personal qualities and one's karma (work), not one's birth. In its initial period, the caste system was flexible and it was merit and job based. One could migrate from one caste to other caste by changing one's profession. This view is supported by records of sages from the so-called "lower castes" who became Brahmins. For example, the Sage Vishwamitra belonged to kshyatria caste, and only later became recognized as a great Brahmin sage, indicating that his caste was not determined by birth. Similarly, Valmiki, once a low-caste robber, became a great sage. Veda Vyasa another sage, was the son of a fisherwoman. Vashista was a shudra and he became sage later and the mentor of Lord Rama.
The articles below indicate that the current Indian government's pro-Hindu bias is beginning to backfire. In particular, great numbers of Indian citizens who are often known as "untouchables" - i.e., below the ancient four-tiered caste system - are abandoning Hinduism for other religions, such as Buddhism, Christianity and Islam, where caste is not a part of the religious teaching, as it is in Hinduism.
"........One night, while Maurya was away in a nearby city, eight men from the higher Rajput caste came to his farm. They broke his fences, stole his tractor, beat his wife and daughter, and burned down his house. The message was clear: Stay at the bottom where you belong.".............
(New York, February 13, 2007) – India has systematically failed to uphold its international legal obligations to ensure the fundamental human rights of Dalits, or so-called untouchables, despite laws and policies against caste discrimination, the Center for Human Rights and Global Justice and Human Rights Watch said in a new report released today. More than 165 million Dalits in India are condemned to a lifetime of abuse simply because of their caste.
The 113-page report, “Hidden Apartheid: Caste Discrimination against India’s ‘Untouchables’,” was produced as a “shadow report” in response to India’s submission to the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD), which monitors implementation of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD). The committee will review India’s compliance with the convention during hearings in Geneva on February 23 and 26.
The creation of a number of Hindu religious books including the
Manusmriti, Atharva Vedas, Vishnu smriti, and many others like these and their
strict compliance by the Brahmans (upper priestly hindu caste), led to a society in
which equality between men and women was far from existent (Agarwal).
And how is your post credible? All you have done is provide some links about dalits converting and stuff. I agree that there are 4 castes- Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra based on their occupation and not birth. Just because rot has set into the social structure, it doesn't prove that "Hinduism does promote division of people based on their 'caste' and ill-treatment of lower cast human being" as you claimed. It is similar to me claiming that Islam promotes terrorism, female genital mutilation and Honor killings. Do you think it is correct to blame Islam for the social degradation of its followers ? That being said, I do not support discrimination of people based on any criteria. People must be given a chance to better their life and live with dignity irrespective of caste, creed, sect or religion
The hindu religious texts are also called Sruti(the 4 vedas-Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva). This cannot be changed or modified just like you cannot modify the Quran. This is the supreme authority. Do you have any evidence from the Vedas which talks about ill-treating or stating that caste system is hereditary and that people of "lower castes" must be suppressed? I have recently started developing an interest in various religions (Hinduism among them) and it would be nice if you can point me in the right direction with some examples from the 4 vedas
I also see that you have mentioned the Manusmriti and Vishnusmrithi. Do you even know what the Smrithis are ? Smrithis are not the final authority. If there is anything in a Smriti which contradicts the Sruti, the Smriti is to be rejected. So we can reject the authenticity of Manusmriti etc just because it contradicts the Vedas and cannot be considered a part of the religion. The people are enpowered here to think , verify and accept a code of life. Just because people choose to ignore the law of a country does not mean the law is biased. Same is the case here. Another reason why we don't have to follow the smritis are because they time-bound scriptures. A new age gets a new smriti. So not only is manusmriti and vishnusmriti outdated, they are also irrelevant. You can sort of consider the constitution of India to be the Smriti of this age. I am however curious about what instances of caste suppression you found in the Atharvaveda (last link)
And how is your post credible? All you have done is provide some links about dalits converting and stuff. I agree that there are 4 castes- Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra based on their occupation and not birth. .......... found in the Atharvaveda (last link)
At least what I did was to provide credible links. I did not want to beat this argument to death nor I wanted to spend more time than needed on this issue so I held myself on these few random yet credible evidences to support my point.
I am glad you said just because someone broke some rules does not mean the rules are bad. Exactly same argument what I said when I answered to Chintu.
There is no proof absolutely what you mentioned about islam and I will not answer you just because the discussion is already too far gone and it will go out of the bound of the topic of this thread which is:
How badly hindus treat lower cast fellow citizens.
Why not admit it that hinduism divided people on false basis!!!!
I read its based on birth in certain family (which may have a particular occupation or line of work)
You admit its based on their occupation only.
The point is that its plain and simple wrong to divide people in to high and low "caste".
Last edited by deedawar; Aug 18th, 2008 at 02:12 AM.
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