[Split]Rise of the Taliban - Page 2

deedawar · Jul 7th, 2008, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mo293

Seems like you run out of arguments and go in circles... Let me cut and paste from your post #6

Check your facts ...... Mullah Omar / Taliban were nowhere when Soviets were in Afghanistan ... They left Afghanistan in 1989. Soviets were driven out by mujahideens ... some of the leaders were Hekmatiyar and Ahmed Shah Masood ..... Mullah Omar / Taliban were nowhere at that time.

Here is a lil back ground on who were Talibs before they became Talibs

It was against this background that the Taliban emerged. Former mujahidin who were disillusioned with the chaos that had followed their victory became the nucleus of a movement that coalesced around Mullah Mohammad Omar, a former mujahid from Qandahar province.

:biggthumb

Wait he will find another made up twist to the facts.!!!

mo293 · Jul 7th, 2008, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deedawar

Do you need reading comprehension class. ]

Seems like he does, thats why I am saving bandwidth...

aam bandha · Jul 7th, 2008, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mo293

Seems like you run out of arguments and go in circles... Let me cut and paste from your post #6

Check your facts ...... Mullah Omar / Taliban were nowhere when Soviets were in Afghanistan ... They left Afghanistan in 1989. Soviets were driven out by mujahideens ... some of the leaders were Hekmatiyar and Ahmed Shah Masood ..... Mullah Omar / Taliban were nowhere at that time.

Here is a lil back ground on who were Talibs before they became Talibs

It was against this background that the Taliban emerged. Former mujahidin who were disillusioned with the chaos that had followed their victory became the nucleus of a movement that coalesced around Mullah Mohammad Omar, a former mujahid from Qandahar province.

Wel i think i will have to take you through the motions step by step.

1) Did taliban as a group fight the soviets ...... answer this

Once you answer this i will take you to step 2 .... if i give you a lot of information you get confused.

the statement about Taliban was made in respose to Teggy's opinion ..... that the talibans was formed by US / Saudi / Pakistan to fight the Russians ...

and true to Pakistani nature ...... teggy read what i wrote ... surrendered and left

aam bandha · Jul 7th, 2008, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deedawar

Do you need reading comprehension class. Where did I say they are not terrorist organization?

I said LTTE is also a terrorist organization funded and started by India. This was the original topic of discussion.

Well you dont even know what thread you were replyiing to ....... in your rush to surrender you forgot that the topic of discussion was " India Shining" ... though it was said in a sarcarstic way

you statement " Indian secret service RAW (the terrorist organization) built another terrorist organization of LTTE...it came back to haunt them"

My response " Indians paid a heavy price for their actions .... but they learnt from it ....... when will Pakistan learn .... that is the question."

Paksitan today is paying a heavy price for supporting taliban...... there is another thread about " Shias and taliban". You are a paksitani .... you know what these people have done to paksitan ...... advice ....learn a lesson

deedawar · Jul 7th, 2008, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aam bandha

Wel i think i will have to take you through the motions step by step.

1) Did taliban as a group fight the soviets ...... answer this

Once you answer this i will take you to step 2 .... if i give you a lot of information you get confused.

the statement about Taliban was made in respose to Teggy's opinion ..... that the talibans was formed by US / Saudi / Pakistan to fight the Russians ...

and true to Pakistani nature ...... teggy read what i wrote ... surrendered and left

You again made a wrong statement. or rather statements.

The thread was split after the discussion of LTTE, I wrote the fact that Pakistan did not create any terrorist organization to control another country and you asked who were taliban and I wrote read my statement again till you get it right...only then teggy made his post.

teggy · Jul 7th, 2008, 09:23 PM

Although the USSR had been interfering in Afghan affairs long before the US, it is worth noting that contrary to the conventional wisdom, the United States appears to have begun operations in Afghanistan before the full-fledged Soviet invasion. Former National Security Adviser under the Carter Administration, Zbigniew Brzezenski, has admitted that an American operation to infiltrate Afghanistan was launched long before Russia sent in its troops on 27 December 1979. Agence France Press reported that: “Despite formal denials, the United States launched a covert
operation to bolster anti-Communist guerrillas in Afghanistan at least six months before the 1979 Soviet invasion of the country, according to a former top US official.”[2]

Brzezenski stated that “We actually did provide some support to the Mujahedeen before the invasion.”[3] “We did not push the Russians into invading, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.” He also bragged: “That secret operation was an excellent idea. The effect was to draw the Russians into the Afghan trap.”[4] In other words, the US appears to have been attempting to foster and manipulate unrest amongst various Afghan factions to destabilise the already unpopular Communist regime and bring the country under US sphere of influence. This included the recruitment of local leaders and warlords to form mercenary rebel groups, who would wage war against the Soviet-backed government, to institute a new regime under American control.

In December 1979, Russia intervened to reinforce its hegemony over Afghanistan, since the PDPA was, according to Brzezenski’s testimony, being destabilised by a US operation to infiltrate Afghanistan that had commenced at a much earlier date. The US had therefore evidently also wished to bring this strategic region under its own hegemony. Anticipating this attempt by the US to destabilise the pro-Soviet PDPA and install a new pro-American regime in Afghanistan, Russia undertook a full-fledged invasion to keep the country under its own sphere of influence. Afghan analyst Dr. Noor Ali observes of the ensuing US policy: “Following the invasion of Afghanistan by the former Soviet Union in late December 1979, hundreds of high ranking Afghan politicians and technocrats as well as army officers including generals entered into Pakistan with the hope of organizing the needed resistance to oppose the invader in order to liberate Afghanistan. Unfortunately and regrettably the US Government in collusion with Pakistan’s leaders took abusive advantage of the opportunity so as to exploit it fully and by all manner of means to their own and exclusive illegitimate benefits and objectives, which had been threefold: (i) to rule out the creation of any responsible and independent Afghan organization among Afghans, interacting directly with Washington, to support Afghan resistance, (ii) to repulse the Red Army by using exclusively the blood of Afghans, and (iii) to make of Afghanistan a satellite if not an integrated part of Pakistan in return for Pakistani leaders’ services, but in complete disregard to Afghan people’s sovereignty and sacrifices.”[5] The overall result was a brutal civil war manipulated by the two superpowers that drove 6 million Afghan people from their homes.[/SIZE]

By 1991-92, the US and the USSR finally reached an agreement that neither would continue to supply aid to any faction in Afghanistan. However, the numerous militant factions previously funded and armed by the US have been vying for supremacy. One of the armed Afghan factions funded by the CIA during this war was the Taliban, an apparently Islamic movement. With the departure of Soviet troops in 1989, these factions began vying with one another for supremacy, the Taliban eventually arising as the dominant force in Afghanistan. As a coherent politico-military faction or movement, the Taliban did not exist prior to October 1994, but were members of other factions such as Harakat-e Islami and Mohammad Nabi Mohammadi, or operated independently without a centralised command centre.[/SIZE]

The ultimate result has been that post-Cold War Afghanistan has remained in a state of anarchical civil war up to this day, with the Taliban having emerged as the most powerful faction in the country by the mid-1990s. One can therefore conclude that as a result of a string of proxy wars, that were the result of manipulation by both the US and the former USSR, Afghanistan has been plunged into a state of perpetual humanitarian catastrophe.

Afghanistan, the Taliban and the United States (by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed) - Media Monitors Network

Just something to ponder over, this is what i stated earlier as well. It wasn't just Pakistan. I'm in the process of uploading a documentary that will make it a bit more clear.

deedawar · Jul 7th, 2008, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aam bandha

Well you dont even know what thread you were replyiing to ....... in your rush to surrender you forgot that the topic of discussion was " India Shining" ... though it was said in a sarcarstic way

you statement " Indian secret service RAW (the terrorist organization) built another terrorist organization of LTTE...it came back to haunt them"

My response " Indians paid a heavy price for their actions .... but they learnt from it ....... when will Pakistan learn .... that is the question."

Paksitan today is paying a heavy price for supporting taliban...... there is another thread about " Shias and taliban". You are a paksitani .... you know what these people have done to paksitan ...... advice ....learn a lesson

I know what I wrote. See above.

Pakistan is forced in to a situation. But Pakistan DID NOT make any terrorist organization to control any country...unlike India which tried to keep a check on Sri Lanka and had to pay a big price.

With so much at steak Pakisan does not need to take on the burden of fighting. Peace is more productive for countries like Pakistan or India.

No one majority areas support taliban in Pakistan.
Northern Qabail reside in free area and nothing to do with mainland Pakistan. Territorially speaking the qabailee are Pakistani but they reside in Azad/largely uncontrolled area for years much longer than we two (you and I) have lived.

mo293 · Jul 7th, 2008, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teggy

By 1991-92, the US and the USSR finally reached an agreement that neither would continue to supply aid to any faction in Afghanistan. However, the numerous militant factions previously funded and armed by the US have been vying for supremacy. One of the armed Afghan factions funded by the CIA during this war was the Taliban, an apparently Islamic movement.

Thank you saar !!! I now rest me case..

deedawar · Jul 7th, 2008, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teggy

Although the USSR had been interfering in Afghan affairs long before the US, it is worth noting that contrary to the conventional wisdom, the United States appears to have begun operations in Afghanistan before the full-fledged Soviet invasion. Former National Security Adviser under the Carter Administration, Zbigniew Brzezenski, has admitted that an American operation to infiltrate Afghanistan was launched long before Russia sent in its troops on 27 December 1979. Agence France Press reported that: “Despite formal denials, the United States launched a covert

operation to bolster anti-Communist guerrillas in Afghanistan at least six months before the 1979 Soviet invasion of the country, according to a former top US official.”[2]

Brzezenski stated that “We actually did provide some support to the Mujahedeen before the invasion.”[3] “We did not push the Russians into invading, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.” He also bragged: “That secret operation was an excellent idea. The effect was to draw the Russians into the Afghan trap.”[4] In other words, the US appears to have been attempting to foster and manipulate unrest amongst various Afghan factions to destabilise the already unpopular Communist regime and bring the country under US sphere of influence. This included the recruitment of local leaders and warlords to form mercenary rebel groups, who would wage war against the Soviet-backed government, to institute a new regime under American control.

In December 1979, Russia intervened to reinforce its hegemony over Afghanistan, since the PDPA was, according to Brzezenski’s testimony, being destabilised by a US operation to infiltrate Afghanistan that had commenced at a much earlier date. The US had therefore evidently also wished to bring this strategic region under its own hegemony. Anticipating this attempt by the US to destabilise the pro-Soviet PDPA and install a new pro-American regime in Afghanistan, Russia undertook a full-fledged invasion to keep the country under its own sphere of influence. Afghan analyst Dr. Noor Ali observes of the ensuing US policy: “Following the invasion of Afghanistan by the former Soviet Union in late December 1979, hundreds of high ranking Afghan politicians and technocrats as well as army officers including generals entered into Pakistan with the hope of organizing the needed resistance to oppose the invader in order to liberate Afghanistan. Unfortunately and regrettably the US Government in collusion with Pakistan’s leaders took abusive advantage of the opportunity so as to exploit it fully and by all manner of means to their own and exclusive illegitimate benefits and objectives, which had been threefold: (i) to rule out the creation of any responsible and independent Afghan organization among Afghans, interacting directly with Washington, to support Afghan resistance, (ii) to repulse the Red Army by using exclusively the blood of Afghans, and (iii) to make of Afghanistan a satellite if not an integrated part of Pakistan in return for Pakistani leaders’ services, but in complete disregard to Afghan people’s sovereignty and sacrifices.”[5] The overall result was a brutal civil war manipulated by the two superpowers that drove 6 million Afghan people from their homes.[/SIZE]

By 1991-92, the US and the USSR finally reached an agreement that neither would continue to supply aid to any faction in Afghanistan. However, the numerous militant factions previously funded and armed by the US have been vying for supremacy. One of the armed Afghan factions funded by the CIA during this war was the Taliban, an apparently Islamic movement. With the departure of Soviet troops in 1989, these factions began vying with one another for supremacy, the Taliban eventually arising as the dominant force in Afghanistan. As a coherent politico-military faction or movement, the Taliban did not exist prior to October 1994, but were members of other factions such as Harakat-e Islami and Mohammad Nabi Mohammadi, or operated independently without a centralised command centre.[/SIZE]

The ultimate result has been that post-Cold War Afghanistan has remained in a state of anarchical civil war up to this day, with the Taliban having emerged as the most powerful faction in the country by the mid-1990s. One can therefore conclude that as a result of a string of proxy wars, that were the result of manipulation by both the US and the former USSR, Afghanistan has been plunged into a state of perpetual humanitarian catastrophe.

Afghanistan, the Taliban and the United States (by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed) - Media Monitors Network

Just something to ponder over, this is what i stated earlier as well. It wasn't just Pakistan. I'm in the process of uploading a documentary that will make it a bit more clear.

well, if you discuss with an Indian...they will not 'surrender' to facts.

'Main Nah Maanoon' example can fit here as well.

I can predict what may come next from aam bandha.

aam bandha · Jul 7th, 2008, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mo293

Thank you saar !!! I now rest me case..

hurry to surrender .... just read the second line after that

One of the armed Afghan factions funded by the CIA during this war was the Taliban, an apparently Islamic movement. With the departure of Soviet troops in 1989, these factions began vying with one another for supremacy, the Taliban eventually arising as the dominant force in Afghanistan. As a coherent politico-military faction or movement, the Taliban did not exist prior to October 1994, but were members of other factions such as Harakat-e Islami and Mohammad Nabi Mohammadi, or operated independently without a centralised command centre

Beep Beep Beep ....... someone goign down

aam bandha · Jul 7th, 2008, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deedawar

I know what I wrote. See above.

Pakistan is forced in to a situation. But Pakistan DID NOT make any terrorist organization to control any country...unlike India which tried to keep a check on Sri Lanka and had to pay a big price.

With so much at steak Pakisan does not need to take on the burden of fighting. Peace is more productive for countries like Pakistan or India.

No one majority areas support taliban in Pakistan.
Northern Qabail reside in free area and nothing to do with mainland Pakistan. Territorially speaking the qabailee are Pakistani but they reside in Azad/largely uncontrolled area for years much longer than we two (you and I) have lived.

Did you even read the article ... this should be of interest to you

Unfortunately and regrettably the US Government in collusion with Pakistan’s leaders took abusive advantage of the opportunity so as to exploit it fully and by all manner of means to their own and exclusive illegitimate benefits and objectives, which had been threefold: (i) to rule out the creation of any responsible and independent Afghan organization among Afghans, interacting directly with Washington, to support Afghan resistance, (ii) to repulse the Red Army by using exclusively the blood of Afghans, and (iii) to make of Afghanistan a satellite if not an integrated part of Pakistan in return for Pakistani leaders’ services, but in complete disregard to Afghan people’s sovereignty and sacrifices.”[5] The overall result was a brutal civil war manipulated by the two superpowers that drove 6 million Afghan people from their homes

Good work Teggy .... i will add to it a little later....

aam bandha · Jul 7th, 2008, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teggy

Just something to ponder over, this is what i stated earlier as well. It wasn't just Pakistan. I'm in the process of uploading a documentary that will make it a bit more clear.

The war in afghanisatn has been older then the US / USSR tusle .... it goes back to the british and Russians ... the great game ..... US just picked up from where Britian had left.

As for the role of Pakistan. After the end of soviet era ..... they had to do something as it was getting stategically difficult for them. The groups that they had supported with the US money were not listening to them ..... also you have to keep in mind a hostile afghanistan is very dangerous for Pakistan. You have teh issue of Durand line & also they have to divert resources from the east ... Indian side .... to defend from afghan border.

So it had become a necassity for them to do somthing in reference to Afghansitan. US had no interest and they would have supported any move by Pakistanis in afghansitan. So they bank rolled and supported one of the newly formed groups called Taliban. A group formed of some old mujahedins AND a lot of new recruits from madrasas in Pakistan.

The chaos that was in Afghanistan was because of the old mujahedins ..... most of these old mujahedis were the warlords protect their piece of pie in Afghansitan. At this time i would add that a number of countries including Iran, India, Russia through its satellite states were adding to this pot boiler.

So this was the ripe situation for someone to come as a protector of people ...... so the Taliban rode into a situation which was tailor made for them ..... the incorruptable islamic jehadis ... whose sole aim as to unify Afghanistan.

Role of Pakistan in this is widely known ....... i have added links and mentioned from reports above and can add a lot more.

So now these talibans have turned on their maker .... hence the lesson

Here is something more to chew on
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB227/

aam bandha · Jul 7th, 2008, 11:06 PM

I will add some US declassified documenst ..... it is avaialble on net and i have attached the links too

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]Document 1 - [Excised] to Ron McMullen (Afghanistan Desk), "Developments in Afghanistan," December 5, 1994, Unknown Classification, 1 p. [Excised][/SIZE][/FONT]
Just as the Taliban are emerging as a major player in Afghanistan, a source [name excised] is troubled over Pakistan's deep involvement in Afghan politics and Pakistan's evident role in the Taliban's recent military successes. His concerns include, "that the GOP [Government of Pakistan] ISI [Inter-Services Intelligence] is deeply involved in the Taleban take over in Kandahar and Qalat," and that Pakistan's efforts to further its agenda in Afghanistan will sabotage U.N. peace efforts currently being led by Mahmoud Mesteri, Special Envoy for Afghanistan for the U.N. Secretary General.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB227/1.pdf

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]Document 2 - Islama 00975
U.S. Embassy (Islamabad), Cable, "Northern Afghan Strongman General Dostam Meets Taliban Representatives" January 29, 1995, Confidential, 2 pp. [Excised][/SIZE][/FONT]
Unnamed Pakistani officials meeting in Islamabad with General Abdul Rashid Dostum in December 1995 allegedly advise Dostum to "not worry about the Taliban, because Pakistan can take care of them." Dostum reportedly agrees to Pakistani requests of cooperation with the Taliban in opening trade routes in Afghanistan for Pakistan.
Dostum also meets with Taliban and Pakistani officials in Mazar-e-sharif in December. He is told by Taliban officials that they have "no territorial ambitions in the north and that Dostum should not oppose them." Despite these promises, in May 1997 the Taliban would seize control of Mazar-e-sharif, taking Dostum's properties and forcing him into exile.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB227/2.pdf

There is more in the earlier link ..... dating from 1994 till 2001 ... the Taliban period ......

deedawar · Jul 8th, 2008, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aam bandha

Did you even read the article ... this should be of interest to you

Unfortunately and regrettably the US Government in collusion with Pakistan’s leaders took abusive advantage of the opportunity so as to exploit it fully and by all manner of means to their own and exclusive illegitimate benefits and objectives, which had been threefold: (i) to rule out the creation of any responsible and independent Afghan organization among Afghans, interacting directly with Washington, to support Afghan resistance, (ii) to repulse the Red Army by using exclusively the blood of Afghans, and (iii) to make of Afghanistan a satellite if not an integrated part of Pakistan in return for Pakistani leaders’ services, but in complete disregard to Afghan people’s sovereignty and sacrifices.”[5] The overall result was a brutal civil war manipulated by the two superpowers that drove 6 million Afghan people from their homes

Good work Teggy .... i will add to it a little later....

yes. The point I am making is that Pakistan did not create a terrorist organization to control Afghanistan or any other country...unlike what India did try in Siri Lanka.

deedawar · Jul 8th, 2008, 12:30 AM

Taliban - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Though there is no evidence that the CIA directly supported the Taliban or Al Qaeda, some basis for military support of the Taliban was provided when, in the early 1980s, the CIA and the ISI (Pakistan's Interservices Intelligence Agency) provided arms to Afghans resisting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and the ISI assisted the process of gathering radical Muslims from around the world to fight against the Soviets. Osama Bin Laden was one of the key players in organizing training camps for the foreign Muslim volunteers. The U.S. poured funds and arms into Afghanistan and "by 1987, 65,000 tons of U.S.-made weapons and ammunition a year were entering the war".[16]
The Taliban were based in the Helmand, Kandahar and Uruzgan regions, and were overwhelmingly ethnic Pashtuns and predominantly Durrani Pashtuns. They received training and arms from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia as well as other Middle Eastern countries who had been recruited by the U.S. to thwart the Soviet invasion of this region.

aam bandha · Jul 8th, 2008, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deedawar

yes. The point I am making is that Pakistan did not create a terrorist organization to control Afghanistan or any other country...unlike what India did try in Siri Lanka.

Well this would be the sixth time you have said that .... repeat it a couple of times more then MAYBE soemeone MIGHT belive it. Or is it that you are trying to convince yourself that Pakistan never created Taliban?

deedawar · Jul 14th, 2008, 11:19 PM

India created a terrorist organization knowingly to control and punish another country for supporting Pakistan and to control its south eastern territory. Pakistan did not inend to control ANY country.

Pakisan did what was necessary to clear and ward off a communist country to control another country.

Not clear enough? Tough luck! Please attend an English language class.

mo293 · Jul 14th, 2008, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deedawar

India created a terrorist organization knowingly to control and punish another country for supporting Pakistan and to control its south eastern territory. Pakistan did not inend to control ANY country.

Pakisan did what was necessary to clear and ward off a communist country to control another country.

Not clear enough? Tough luck! Please attend an English language class.

Abay yaar why are you wasting your time and bandwidth... Its like bhains ke aage been bajana.. Its not their fault, its what they teach them in schools. Gooooood luck anyways.

Shogun Ninjuku · Jul 15th, 2008, 12:37 AM

What is the contention here? whether taleban was created by ISI or not? Whether ISI was founders of Taleban or not, Taleban became the evil they ultimately became, thanks to ISI. To the extent that even today every other US general talks about how ISI is confounding the Pakistan government's ability or willingness to catch the Taleban.

As to India creating LTTE, let's just say some people will never admit the true history because it makes them look real bad. Any way, what is th econnection between Taleban, ISI and the LTTE? Nothing

simplyme · Jul 15th, 2008, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deedawar

India created a terrorist organization knowingly to control and punish another country for supporting Pakistan and to control its south eastern territory. Pakistan did not inend to control ANY country.

Pakisan did what was necessary to clear and ward off a communist country to control another country.

Not clear enough? Tough luck! Please attend an English language class.

I really appreciate your sources man. You really have gone to a very tough school where they taught you anything but reality.

So you are saying that Pakistan did not have any role in the creation of Taliban. Please clarify.