I can't believe the Georgians actually provoked this. Fine, their cause is right and just and all that, but they knew that if they tried to assert control over the South Ossetian rebels then Russia would attack. And yet they did it anyway.
Anyhows, if this leads to open war it disproves the theory that democracies don't go to war with each other.
Putting the British into British North America since January 3rd 2005
Georgia's president has said on television that Russia is fighting a war with Georgia.
Vladimir Putin has said war has started in South Ossetia.
The Georgians claim to have shot down 2 Russian planes.
The Russians are claiming 10 Russian soldiers were killed in a Georgian artillery strike on a Russian barracks in South Ossetia.
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mAd_ScIeNtIsT prediction: The Georgians are going to get pasted within two weeks. Bush, Brown, Sarkozy, Merkel, Harper & friends will not have the balls to do the Right Thing and unilaterally place a full set of military and economic sanctions on Russia.
Well it was about time that some body should take care of Georgia's occupation/aggression in South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
West, especially US helped Kosovo to deal with Serbian occupation but they kept their eyes closed when it comes to the other occupied territories.
South Ossetia and Abkhazia declared their defacto independence in 1992. Georgia denied it.
Reasonable way was to solve the current issue with dialogue, but Saakashvili's government decided to deal it with arms and tried to invade Tskhinvali by force.
More then a Dozen South Ossetians were killed in that attack. South Ossetian authorities say about 15 were civilians.
It's about time that US/West shed their ignorance and deal with seperatists movements like South Ossetia, Abkhazia, East Turkestan, Tibet, Kashmir etc with open eyes and minds.
DZHAVA, Georgia - Georgia launched a major military offensive Friday to retake the breakaway province of South Ossetia, prompting Moscow to send tanks into the region in a furious response that threatens to engulf Georgia, a staunch U.S. ally, and Russia in all-out war.
Hundreds were reported dead in the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won defacto independence in a war against Georgia that ended in 1992. Witnesses said the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali was devastated.
"I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars," said Lyudmila Ostayeva, 50, who had fled with her family to Dzhava, a village near the border with Russia. "It's impossible to count them now. There is hardly a single building left undamaged."
The fighting broke out as much of the world's attention was focused on the start of the Olympic Games and many leaders, including Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and President Bush, were on their way to Beijing.
The timing suggests Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili may have been counting on surprise to fulfill his longtime pledge to wrest back control of South Ossetia — a key to his hold on power.
Saakashvili agreed the timing was not coincidental, but accused Russia of being the aggressor. Brilliant moment to attack a small country."
"Most decision makers have gone for the holidays," he said in an interview with CNN. "
South Ossetian separatist leader Eduard Kokoity claimed hundreds of civilians had been killed.
Georgia is now withdrawing all of its forces from Iraq (it's the third largest contributor to the Occupation, behind only the USA and the UK). Gerogia's govenrment seems to have decided that troops are better used when defending their own country than occupying other countries....
Interestingly, though Georgian troops in Iraq fought and died to help US troops occupy Iraq, the USA has already announced that none of its 100 troops in Georgia are or will be involved with fighting against the Russians. You scratch the USA's back and the USA......
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Great comparison MS , Georgian troops helping the U.S. to stablize Iraq against insurgents to the U.S. going in direct combat with Russia over Ossetia control.
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Great comparison MS , Georgian troops helping the U.S. to stablize Iraq against insurgents to the U.S. going in direct combat with Russia over Ossetia control.
Deliberately dramatic, I admit. But while a country who's soldiers died fighting alongside American GIs in what is essentially America's war in Iraq is being invaded by one of the world's most powerful countries..... President Bush is still off attending the openign ceremony of a sporting event.
Georgia is now withdrawing all of its forces from Iraq (it's the third largest contributor to the Occupation, behind only the USA and the UK). Gerogia's govenrment seems to have decided that troops are better used when defending their own country than occupying other countries....
Interestingly, though Georgian troops in Iraq fought and died to help US troops occupy Iraq, the USA has already announced that none of its 100 troops in Georgia are or will be involved with fighting against the Russians. You scratch the USA's back and the USA......
Scratching Georgia's back because they provided soldiers in Iraq does not mean they have to go to war with RUSSIA!
Can one of you be kind enough to give a brief summary (albeit biased) of whats the history of this conflict? I read about Russia's attack this morning, and don't have the time to go through a long article about it.
"Let your friends underestimate your virtues. Let your enemies overestimate your faults." - Godfather.
Can one of you be kind enough to give a brief summary (albeit biased) of whats the history of this conflict? I read about Russia's attack this morning, and don't have the time to go through a long article about it.
South Ossetia was one of the 2 autonomous Oblasts in the Georgian S.S.R. The other is Abkhazia.
Ossetians are Southern Caucuss people that inhabit Ossetia , divided between Russia and Georgia.
As the break up of Soviet Union completed in 1991/1992, South Ossetia and Abkhazia declared a defacto independence form Georgia. At the time of this independence 70-75% population of South Ossetia's was comprised of Ossetians.
Prior to that 1989, South Ossetian Supreme Soviet had taken a decision to reunite South Ossetia with the North, Georgia SSR revoked that decision the next day.
The history of this conflict is longer then it currently seems. Georgia is riding on a horse right now, supposedly based on a presumption that west would support their cause, that is in turn based on their support for the west.
Saakashvili is commiting a mistake here though, by thinking he can re-occupy South Ossetia with force. Georgian troops bombed Tskhinvali(South Ossetia's capital) first before Russia entered its troops in South Ossetia.
Russia is supporting South Ossetian rebels based on it's own Ossetian population. US can travel thousands of miles to liberate Bosnians/ Kosovars and Russians can not across their borders??
Can one of you be kind enough to give a brief summary (albeit biased) of whats the history of this conflict? I read about Russia's attack this morning, and don't have the time to go through a long article about it.
The South Ossetians, ever since Georgia's independence, have believed that Georgia wanted to impose Georgian identity onto them at the cost of Ossetian identity. For example, Georgia passed a law stating Georgian would be the sole official language all over Georgia : but Georgian is not the main language of the Ossetians.
The South Ossetians secured control of south Ossetia in a civil war in 1991, that Russia helped to end in favour of the South Ossetians, who remianed in control.
The problem is that a large minority (30-40%) of South Ossetia's population are ethnic georgians. They live throughout South Ossetia in villages that are intermingled with Ossetian villages. There's no way to separate out the populations into different areas without massive ethnic cleansing. The Georgians didn't want to cede this large ethnic Georgian population to another country and always refused to recognise South Ossetia's independence; in addition, the Ossetians were historically a part of the historic Georgian nation despite having their own cultural identity.
The sad thing is that the politics of appeasement from the 1930s have come full circle.
A few weeks ago, France and Germany refused to allow Georgia to move towards joining NATO, for fear that it would offend and alienate the new Russian president. Instead, it has just encouraged the new president to be even more aggresive to the point of authorizing Moscow's first foreign invasion since 1978.
My only other question is, did the Russians attack South Ossetia to help them secure independence from Georgia, or because Russia wants to annex South Ossetia themselves?
My only other question is, did the Russians attack South Ossetia to help them secure independence from Georgia, or because Russia wants to annex South Ossetia themselves?
To help South Ossetia become independent. Russia is furious that the West separated Kosovo from Russia's ally Serbia: Russia intend to punish the West by separating South Ossetia and possible Abkhazia from the West's ally, Georgia.
My only other question is, did the Russians attack South Ossetia to help them secure independence from Georgia, or because Russia wants to annex South Ossetia themselves?
Russia had attacked the Georgian troops, but Georgians had invaded South Ossetia earlier.
Russia had its peace troops all along in the region, since when South Ossetia had declared independance in 1992.
If Russia is attacking South Ossetia, then there is no sense of supporting their cause of independence. And i don't think Russia is to annex South Ossetia.
By the way all this scenario with South Ossetia does not make Russia an angel, the same rule applies to it when it comes to Chechenya etc.
Russia wants to strenghthen it's influence in the region and weaken the wests. keeping Georgia from controling it's territory (South Ossetia) does just that. Russia has been giving out Russian passports to those in South Ossetia and supporting the separatists further stroking the flames agitating Georgia. Georgia had offered South Ossetia broad autonomy but it was rejected no doubt with proding by Russia to do so.
Bottomline we'll see how far US alliedship pays off to the Georgians now? With Russia on the other side of the fence, Ossetia is probably on its way to independence. Russia rarely tolerates agressors in its backyard and does not care about rules when its interests are at stake. They have the muscle to pursue such a course and US knows it.
Hundreds, possibly thousands, of volunteer fighters from Russia were mobilising to enter the war in Georgia's breakaway republic of South Ossetia last night.
Units of armed Cossacks from across the North Caucasus region which borders Georgia were poised to join the battle for the separatists' capital, Tskhinvali.
In North Ossetia, the region of Russia which shares cultural links and a border with South Ossetia, lists of men willing to fight against Georgian forces were drawn up. Vitaly Khubayev, 35, from the capital, Vladikavkaz, told the Guardian: "There are already two busloads of fighters leaving for Tskhinvali every day. They give you a uniform on the way and you get issued with weapons once you arrive. If I didn't have three children I'd have gone."
The two Ossetias are historically inseparable and residents of the northern republic were furious yesterday at what they described as the "Georgian fascist attack" on their neighbours.
Many said they were willing to take up arms and travel to defend their relatives across the border in South Ossetia. Valentin Tekhti, 67, a teacher, said: "Our Ossetian brothers are dying. If we get the call, every man who can stand on two legs will go to fight."
Amiran Khubetsov, a doctor, said: "A nation is under bombardment in the land it has occupied for hundreds of years. The world must not ignore this aggression."
At a special meeting of the UN security council yesterday morning, the United States called on the Kremlin to prevent irregulars entering South Ossetia via the 4km Roki tunnel, the republic's only link with Russia. But at a meeting with the US president, George Bush, in Bejing, the Russian prime minister, Vladimir Putin, admitted "many volunteers" were heading to South Ossetia and it would be "very hard to maintain peace".
Under Russia law, Cossacks - the descendants of runaway serfs and outlaws who in the past were employed to protect the country's southern border - are allowed to carry arms and carry out policing functions in cooperation with interior ministry forces.
At the headquarters of the Terek Cossacks in Vladikavkaz yesterday a group of men sat under portraits of fierce looking warriors with drooping moustaches watching television coverage of Georgian artillery shelling Tskhinvali. One man said there would be a meeting today to discuss forming volunteer units.
In Volgograd the leader of the Don Cossacks, Viktor Vodolatsky, called on all Cossacks under 40 to volunteer. Reports said 100 men from the region had already left for Tskhinvali. "We must help our South Ossetian brothers," he said.
Irregular troops from the north Caucasus played an important role in the conflicts that saw both Georgia's breakaway regions, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, secede in the early 1990s.
In Abkhazia, Cossack and Chechen units fought side by side against Georgian troops, despite being historical enemies. Abkhazia has promised to help South Ossetia in its conflict with Georgia.
Ossetians in Vladikavkaz yesterday said they were hoping for a decisive strike by the Russian army to drive Georgia's forces out of South Ossetia. There were emotional scenes in the city, as hundreds of protesters, mostly women, gathered outside the regional government headquarters and shouted, "Russia, save us!"
Aelita Dzhioyeva, 41, a lawyer who fled Tskhinvali on Thursday evening, showed text messages on her mobile phone from relatives still sheltering in a basement in the city. One message read: "We are dying. Ask the government for help."
Dzhioyeva said: "Our men will stay and fight until the last drop of blood, but our old people and children must be saved. We are calling on the Kremlin to intervene and create a humanitarian corridor for them to escape."
Shota Kochiev, 60, said: "This is America's doing. They are supporting Georgia's mad lust for new land - our land."
About 2,000 refugees from South Ossetia, mostly women and children, have so far been bussed to Russia and are staying in hotels around Vladikavkaz.
Georgia is now withdrawing all of its forces from Iraq (it's the third largest contributor to the Occupation, behind only the USA and the UK). Gerogia's govenrment seems to have decided that troops are better used when defending their own country than occupying other countries....
Interestingly, though Georgian troops in Iraq fought and died to help US troops occupy Iraq, the USA has already announced that none of its 100 troops in Georgia are or will be involved with fighting against the Russians. You scratch the USA's back and the USA......
Haha Bush is stupid but not stupid enough to go to war with Russia, especially when the US are fighting two wars currently and the rest of the world hates them.
Even if he wanted to do something, Bush cannot do anything. The US army is stretched so thin, stop-lossed soldiers in Iraq, it is not possible atm. We love to hate America for a lot of things, but now everyone is calling on the US for help, little ironic i think.
The Russians just want to show-off the world that It still can interfere anywhere.
I believe Russians had it for a show when their MIG plane was shot down a couple of months back,by Georgia.
, Georgian troops helping the U.S. to stablize Iraq against insurgents to the U.S. going in direct combat with Russia over Ossetia control.
